B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 3 years ago

34: 3 Common Misconceptions About Business Development w/ Dan Seabrook


“Isn’t it cheaper to build our own in-house sales development team?”

“How would an external, outsourced BDR mesh with our exiting, in-house marketing team?”

These are great questions, and Dan has the answers.

This episode we tackle misconceptions businesses have about external BDRs and SDRs. Also, we introduce our new co-host, Dan Seabrook.

Dan is the VP of Sales at Operatix, where he’s been for over 4 years, coaching and developing inside sales teams. He reports directly to the CEO (our co-host Aurelien Mottier.)

You were listening to bb revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be, to be a reven new acceleration. My name is already am with you and today I'd like to welcome a very special guest to the show. His name is Dancey Brook, then and I have been working for quite a long way. Is actually our VP sales. Yeah, at operatics and moving forward it will become one of the cost of our B to be revenue acceleration, but gust. So welcome to the show then. Thanks. Right. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to joining the show and I think there's a lot of people that matter the years and events, clients, past clients, hopefully some prospects as well, that should be able to offer a lot of value to to the show. So, yeah, looking forward to getting going. I think it's going to be a challenge as well, so looking forward to learning here on the still, I am absolutely perfect. So you've been with a proactics for nearly five years. Nearly five years, and before we start every single podcast we ask the people would just coming as a guest to introduce a bit about themselves. But I guess what would be interesting for audience today and as you becoming our course, to my course, to the to the bit to be a rover new acceleration. But guest, it would be great if you could share a bit of wrong you know, your journey at operatics. While you started are your progressed and I think your Johnny is particularly interesting. So would you man just showing a little bit about your Johnny with us? Yeah, absolutely so, in terms of going back sort of prior to operatic, you're correct. It's interesting in the context of working in the industry are in, simply because I've coming from a sporting background. So I played a lot of sports, particularly football, or soccer to our American listeners, up until about nineteen and then I actually took the opportunity to go to university in North America. So my careers taking me kind of full circle. Now what would what would the involvement we have in the US? But yeah, in two thousand and fourteen and I believe I joined operatics and joined operatics and exactly the same position that everyone in the management team joined the company. So I joined right at the bottom, which is really in that that business development, sales development type role, whereby my remit was to work on behalf of my clients to support them to accelerate the volume of sales engagement they we're having with their target and users, working with many different interesting companies ranging from cybersecurity to fraud, to storage to big data. And then, after about a year there became an opening in what was your sales team course, and yeah, I moved across to the sales team. So initially I started doing exactly for the sales team what we've been doing for our clients, which was setting up meetings with potential prospects within target software companies, and they could have been small, medium or the very large enterprise software companies. Over the last few years my career developed further, whereby moved into a fulfilled sales role, which is really my responsibility to help operatics acquire, grow and retain clients, and then more recently, over the last sort of year and a half, I guess moving into a I guess sort of a due role, in that it's a sales management but also a quade to carrying roll, whereby owning the top line for operatics, but also carrying a quote to myself. So it's exciting that. I think what I can offer to our client listeners is experience going right from the bottom way through the business, having done the job ourselves, and obviously is, as you know, that's that's a methodology that we apply to everyone that moves into a management position operatic. Yeah, well, I've got to say so. It's a great journey. This is a sort of Joyet we look we love to create, obviously at the paratie. I think you're understood your bottom unity and done a fontestis. Are Bold the way through. So, but on the back to you. But here you are now, you know, on top of being a kind of a chief proven your Fisa, the top sells person, the person responsible for the top line within the business, here and now the cost of the bit of be riven new acceleration show. So congratulation. That was prest promotion, I guess. So I guess let's get drinking. The...

...first question, because I think, I think there is a few things that they would like to discuss with you today around the market. We are in some of the misconception in the market. And the first one I often hear some misconceptions about sells development, business development, and the one that it is probably the most present at the moment when we engage risk prospect or even when we speak to clients, is that outsourcing your pay plane development programs is actually more expensive than recruiting developing an internal team. So obviously in your rule you meet with tons of customers right tons of prospects. You've got people from the day area up to Tel Aviv, going through Paris, unique London. You've got prospects everywhere. So I'd like to get your thoughts and if you could share your thoughts on on that topic of the gusts of insourcing versus outsourcing and is it's really cheaper to Recrut on Tim Yeah, yes, you make good point. I think the first thing is is indeed that geographical sort of location, where where you'd be looking to build a team from. You know, I if I take it in a very sort of simple view, really a lot of our clients are either building teams up in places like San Francisco and New York or London in a mitor obviously there's there's anomalies whereby they're built team from other regions, but I think they tend to send to be the main kind of locations where they're built team from and and as we will know, the theay are super expensive not only to live but also to hire and to build teams are both from a salary and a really state expected and it's very similar story in London. I think I'm just as as an interesting anecdote on that. I not only is it expensive, it's also really difficult to actually recruit both resources. But I'll come on to that point in a second. I think one of the one of the the obvious pushbacks we get when we sit down with a client, we build a business case, we put together proposal. It's a bit of a simplistic view on the numbers. I think the challenge we often run into is that a client will look at the black and white numbers of what an operatic business case could look like and just simply compare that to what the salary of an internal resource would be. And if you took it at phase value like that in the bay are in London, I would actually argue it probably wouldn't be wouldn't be too dissimilar, but it could be slightly. It could look look like a more cost effective option in hiring internally. But obviously when you work with operatics you don't incur the costs of things like the cost of seat, the management of the resources, the technology, the data and the for a one K or or pension contributions and all the other benefits that go with hiring an employee internally. And when you add those costs on to a model that the operatic provide, will it will it starts to actually look more expensive hiring internally versus versus outsourcing. I mean said that we don't really at operatics and I think you'd agree with this. We don't really like to sell based on the fact we're cheaper or more cost effective option. I think we like to sort of get a feel for what they're trying to achieve it in their business and one of the first questions I always are ask is, well, what would that internal resource be doing? And I think often what the feedback is, well, they'll be doing a lot of inbound response management, so following up on marketing qualified leads, and often the story that that plays out is that they probably don't have enough in and they don't have enough market in qualified leads to justify one full time equipment resource internally. So from from our perspective, operatic will probably expect a full time resource to require around three, two, four hundred marketing qualifiedly, depending on quality of the data, to keep them busy for twenty and average at twenty working days per month. Very often, if we're talking about a start up, for example, when they're they're entire they're hiring these resource for the first time. They don't have that volume. So therefore, what are they going to be doing to keep that resource busy? And and often then it starts to become actually a from a cost perspective, you need to upoint five of the resource and we can offer that that flexibility. I think that's particularly right when it comes to people moving to Europe. When you come into Europe and you may ever, don't know a little bit of quos in Italy, a firmount in France, a firmount in Germany, of far want in the...

UK, the basically only other budget forsree at Colt. So I think the beauty of being able to cut and day and having know a quart of a resource, Spanish Alpha for resource, German Alpha for resource, French, one full time resource English and being able to manage the slong which is because things change, is very important. Sorry, I let you carry on number on your shret of source. Yeah, I think that's a fair point. The other thing is around the productivity. So yes, you could, you could do the numbers, you can run some numbers in turn anything. But actually, yes, I can still make it cheaply because I could hire rep straight out school, for example in they are or London, and they'd be pretty cheer. But then the challenge you have to run into what is the productivity or what's the time for them to be productive from a productivity perspective? Often we see if you put, if you take purely a proactive outbound approach to enterprise accounts, will often see that that our benchmark operatics is significantly higher than perhaps what an internal resource would be. And that's be good in a business like such as are as we're coming from advantage point where by we have a lot of clients and we have best practices and data and the management structure and place allows those resources to be successful. Number One. Number two the time to be productive isn't it is a really interesting point because again, it could look more cost effective on paper, but if that resources and delivering any results for the first three months because you're having to put together a playbook, you having to train them, you're having to integrate technologies, you're having to go and find data, you're having to hire a manager to manage that rap. Well, then they may actually it starts to look a little bit more expensive if you're getting value from them three six months down the line versus what you could have got from a company like us almost instantly, simply. Again, yeah, because we have the best practices in place. So I think they're two really important pieces, which is around not only the ultimate productivity but that time to being productive. And then the other point, just to make on that, is hiring based on strength. What I would say is that if you were to hire a rest if you want to build a team purely based on doing inbound response management, I do believe that could actually be, not in all cases, but using a generalization here, could potentially be more cost effective and utilizing company like operatics, where we see that we often are augmenting an internal team or replacing that. That entire sort of proactive approach is doing exactly that, going to the name accounts, and again that's often where your revenue is being generated, because the sales team can't necessarily control where those empty at or definitely can't control where those mqols are coming from. The marketing team can do a great job, but they're still maybe not getting into the real target accounts, and that's where I think again, on paper it could look like a more cost effective option to have the team internally, but if you can go to your proactive target counts and be successful, go to the sea level and penetrate those accounts and go and win the large deals within those those larger organizations and name the counts, well, I think that starts to actually justify the expending and increase your return investment. So they're sort of a few of the main points. So we like to discous great I think, on the on the last point that you made it it's a very good point. I think you can't blame in say teams. We know when you've got to coach on following up on in balunds. People then to focus on their product, the then to focus about MEMMI may product and as far enough, because you are looking to someone would just made an inquiry or done loaded something. I basically gave you a signal that they're interested by your product US fromtastic. So obviously, when your engage with them, they already kind of you the process of searching, because I in the process of searching. They're probably will want to have a bit more of a technical conversation and they probably want to speak about product, and that's fine. You know you can speak about product. When someone come to you, they are looking to buy your car, they will already ask you question about okay, this is a sort of engine that I want, this is the sort of consumption that I want, this is the sort of size, because as the side of my family or whatever. So they will have some crate tire and you will have to be a bit more product driven. However, I agree with you on the point that when you the account base, what I personally see, when you do a...

...bit more of an account based approach and you try to practively engage with those accounts, we see insight Ting, struggling because they've been so are going to use a very strong term, meal that you know. It's I think, is ready to being brainwashed by their product team, by their all the people around them and, of course, everybody in their company telling them other solutions are fantastic because that's that's the right thing to do, but they are sometimes a little bit to brain watch about the product and they forget to put the prospect in the center of the conversation. So, instead of speaking about the issues that you are facing as a prospect and making hypothesis of the pain points that you are suffering from and trying to fit use a case within your sin are you that makes sense with your industry, etc. Exeter etc. They tend to go straight into the product and from my conversation with syllable people, who could be infrastructure, you could be CMOS, it could be CIS, so it could be CIUSDCF was all the from the thin take perspective effect. Those guys are fed up with people telling them about product. What they want. They want someone who's got the decency to actually do their research, engage with them and tell them, well, I've done a bit of research, because I respect you as a prospect. I know that we'll have one shot with you only, so that's one shot. This is what I I think I own dost know your context. This is why I think we can help you. This is how we veled companies like to in the past and this is the value of that first engagement with us. And I think it's extremely difficult for internal team to do so because they may not have access to the intelligence, they may not have access to the the contacts and and also you need to have a certain level of confidence to do so. Now, while aground that point, I've got another question for you which is more on the short page of skills, and I would like to get your thoughts on that. In the UK we speaking about something called Brexit. It's a fantastic political things happening. I don't know if we were going to ever see the end of it, but it's happening at the moment. Now we know that this this will mean that they will be less resources, probably less native resources from France, Germany, Italy, Spain and all that coming into the UK. Mark, okay, coming to London, but we also know that most of our clients have operation centers or their head office in the UK. At the same time, for look at the US. You mentioned San Francisco, so the bay area in general. You mentioned New York, which I think is New York Metro Buston, also the great, great quick places and and I know and I'm being told that the unemployment unemployment rates, so basically that the rate of people who don't have a job is really low, with looking about the person or even sometime lesson of persons, and that's good, to make it very difficult when you've got another two hundred, three hundred competitors right that the actory trained to do the same thing as you're and trying to recruit be dea. So I would like to ask you what's the sort of perception or what's the feedback that you get from your prospect and clients regarding skill stratage and regarding being able to scale quickly? Yeah, so I think that's a really important point. So recently we've brought on a couple of clients have said exactly that. I think this this whole discussion we've just been having around the investment and comparing that hiring interning versus externally. Yeah, that's that's one. That's one just that's one sort of threat of discussion. The other thread for me that I'm having more and more now is well, actually, yes, we could have a discussion around price, but quite frankly, we don't care about the price. We just can't find the resources in the bay area, or well, let's use a bay area for the cent for this example. So a couple of the clients have recently concous and said we want to actually we would like to build our internal team. From strategic point of view, we'd like to have the team internally, but they're just not in in the region. Interesting anect go a had from someone as well. A lot of the younger guys that are going into and goals are going into colleges, universities. They want to and they know there's money in the software industry. They want to go and do computer science degrees and they want to go come out and go into technical roles. And actually they are saying that there's less and less people that are going into sales and marketing roles as there as a leaving school. So therefore, obviously str or Bedr role being an entry level job,...

...there's less and less individuals out there. And now not only that, your point there's there's lots of jobs and not enough people to feel those jobs. And I think the other challenge that companies are having is a retention problem in places like the bay area, because I had a conversation with a recruiter at Ursa gurage conference a couple of weeks ago and they were telling me, they are telling people that they're speaking to or candidates their speaking to never move laterally through. In other words, if you've got an SDR and they go our go to their manager after three months and say I want a ten grand pay rites, probably the the managers not going to give it to them. To guess what, they'll go down the road and they'll get an at, they'll probably get a fifteen k pay rise and they'll get an SDR manager role and then in six months time they'll go and get an inside sales manager role where they're carrying where they may be carrying a quote or managing and quote carrying team as well. So the rate of progression, I believe it's really fast. I believe it's really tough to retain staff, but I think it's actually difficult to even attract stuff. So what we're seeing more now as well is that companies may head be headquartered in in a focal point like the bay area or like New York or like London. Then they may have different operations centers for their inside sales function. So, for example, a couple of companies that are recently spoken to. They're building teams in Austin or they're building teams in Chicago, because they're then the good universities. The cost of employment is lower, the amount of competition is lower, therefore the staff retention is higher, and I mean that's obviously something that we're seeing as well. Being based in Dallas or and actually just a fraction outside of London. We can attract staff and we can retain the right caliber of staff as well, but I do believe that's really becoming a challenge in places like the bay area. Okay, let's makes perfect sense. So another misconception that often come across is the lack of alignments of the BIDR team with the seals marketing team. So basically getting that blue and the Dr Function being an extension of marketing, then fitting up the cells team. And it seems that people seems to be or prospect seems to be quite constant when it comes to using an external agency. That kind of thinking. Well, if we've got everybody internally, we believe that that blue will glue. If we've got people externally, we believe that you will have a will ever, an issue in getting people working as an extension of each other. What are your sorts on that? As thinking that you comes back to the sales process initially. I think something that we really try and do within the within the sale processes, in sure that we're speaking to both sides of the business. So me personally, I would never sell to a VP sales having never spoken to the VPA marketing because a lot of time it's coming from a marketing budget. Likewise, I've seen large program of ours in the past where we've only sold to marketing and marketing have a maybe a pipeline generation goal or a sales engagement goal and they want to meet it but actually haven't told the sales team that they're going to put this initiative in place and guess what, the relationship between our team the sales team is broken from day one. So that's the first thing. I think it's really important to sell to both both sales and marketing. The second piece of that for me is when we do sell to those individuals, it is not about trying to put together or force together forced potal down their throat, I should say. It's not about just trying to put together and off the shelf proposal for as it's really about being integrated into their objectives, though. I think it's really important for us to understand what what are they trying to achieve this year or this quart or this second half of the year, is, whether that's from a revenue perspective, whether that's from a quite line of objective, or whether that's trying to push into a new region. We need to work back from an objective of the company in order to have a program in place that's actually impacting their business. You know, I think if you went to a kind of bog standard telling marketing company and you sold them a hundred hours of work or you saved them a hundred meeting, well, what's that really mean to either the sales and marketing department if it's not integrated into their objectives? That's a that's the first thing. So I think it comes back to the cell process. The other thing once we once we get into work with those organizations, is from day one I think that has to be absolute clarity on what success...

...is. And when I talk about success, it is well, what's the qualification for a sales engage? What's the expect to operate? Conversion rate to opportunity, what is an opportunity and all those different things. So we're absolutely crystal clear on what success looks like and we're both going in the right direction. The other obvious thing is communication. I think there's there's two forms of communication really. I think there's the formal cadence, which is weekly, monthly, quarterly business reviews, and then there's the informal cadence, which is the relationship between our team and the sales team in general. And as an additional point and that, I think it's really important that we have something called the feedback loop, which is, if a meeting has taken place or if a conversations taken place, or if we've received an objection from prospect or whatever that conversation may be, really important that we feedback to the clients, cells and marketing team that the voice of the customers of what we're hearing in the market, likewise, what they're hearing back from prospects, that they've been engaged with bioperatics, so that we can track the conversion rates and we can track what's good and what's bad from kind of anecdotal perspective. Ultimately, if you put all those things in place, I think you're kind of integrated into their cells and marketing teams. Now, in terms of actually bridging the gap between the sales and marketing teams, a lot of the time we're fulfilling part of account base marketing. That could be that they've a hundred named accounts and those named accounts have been selected by the sales team. But the sales team is said to the marketing team, we need your initiative to go and penetrate those accounts for us and will fulfill a part of that, where by the marketing team maybe doing events and webinars and various content email campaign and we're fulfilling a part of that which is actually a proactive piece of finding the contacts, engaging in the contacts and creating the demand. And obviously, if you're integrated into that then and it's and it's part of a sales teams target account, well it kind of naturally marries the two functions together. So I think it's it's a few different elements that that's important. Subject I s do in order from thost on the objective of the end check, so everybody takes responsibility in the process and then start delivering thing. From May perspective, when we start a company. It's also learnding some of the smart your results at the beginning of a complex you can own the respect from both the certain marketing team. And then I think it's about driving honesty in a relationship. You know, unfortunately want the business of business development, which is a tough business. It's a saint not an easy one, particularly when you do it practively. It's tough, you know. I think everybody will recognize that, and you can just get it perfect all the time. So it's about being able to have a line off communication and be able to calibrate when needs be. I've got one last question for you. Know we're running a little bit of time, out of time, a kind of like the interactions. We're just going to go on for a little bit longer today. The last meet misconception at a really sometimes really burn me in, and particularly want to speak to marketing people. So we've got office, I've got a few of marketing clients, marketing friends working in the industry, and sometimes they get frustrated because they feel that the value out of the the sense of the value of these que and it is not realized by their insight cells tie. So let me rephrase that basically, they give a bunch of marketing qualified leads or leads to their cells team and they don't get any feedback, any written on the sit apart from the further the leads are not good enough. What's your opinion on that? What what's your writtle on experience regarding inbound leads and the way they should be managed, the way they should be treated by INSAC tims? So I think it's an interesting point. From from my perspective, marketings responsibility shouldn't be to deliver the perfect lead. It should be to to identify or create some sort of engagement with a target account or a target persona. And, with that said, with what we see is probably in a maximum of thirty percent of the time, and I'll maybe being generous there as well, that the person that's making the inquiry or is the marking qualified lead is at the right level within the right target account. So I mean out to use one of your analogies you've often used always, is that if, for example, if we wanted to buy...

...a new desk, which hopefully with some of these new clients coming in, so we'll need to, if we wanted to buy a new desk for operatics. I don't think it. You and your role as a CEO is going to go and look online for the desks. You're probably going to ask our office manager. When you make some inquiries, the person at the furniture company is probably going to get very excited because there's a sales inquiry, but the reality is they're dealing with the person that's not actually going to have the authority just to putch solution or the the furniture in this instance. So that person will then have to go back to their manager, being you share the cost, go back again, nego shake, come back to you again, and ultimately what that means is you're not really dealing with the right person. That's going to create a very long sale cycle. So there's there's a couple of things that we do to try and get around that. The first thing is it is important to service that in bounded that in bound inquiry because from a customer experience perspective, but also there could be some extremely valuable information to be gained from someone at a lower level in a business. So you may want to engage with that analyst becds. It's JP Morgan and Jape Morgan, the target account for that analyst isn't a target, so you may want to pick up some information for that person. Then the next step is actually to really do turn that inbound engagement into a into a proactive approach, which is right. Well, we know there's some interest from JP Morgan. Who are the other five to ten people within that business that we would want to engage with typically and actually turn into a proactive approach, more of an account based prospecting approach, and go and engage with that those individual with the context that you've picked up from the lower level individual individual and articulate their value, your value property proposition, create the demand. I think that's kind of the the really important takeaway from marketing qualified leaders at they're not going to be perfect, where you have to use some of the into Intel that you're picking up from that that inquiry to turn it into a proactive approach. And actually I don't think enough of the inside sales teams we see are doing that and they just want to burn through a number of contact accent and hope they find the time and in the Rath well, actually there's yeah, probably a lot of dinner. If you turn into a proactive I guess I guess it's a relative but my take on that is the higher your average deal value, the more you should force yourself in trying to join the dots between a very average inquiry. That's just what's going on into the account. Sometimes what we've seen is actually with one customer I want mention, we realize that fifteen different inquiries from the same accounts but from different location and basically because the inquiries were on paper, quite frankly, not the right guy to to junior, probably not the right person. Most of them were not followed up, but no one actually joined the DOT. No one looked at them because you had one team dealing with that area, another team dealing with that as area. So maybe it was more for marketing, operation cells, operation management issue. But when the door joined and you realize that, you know you've got fifteen people over the last couple of ones that have been taking contents, looking at contents and all looking at the same thing. You can use scrape tools, Le Cells, navigate or mark them as did. You get some more suggestion and very quickly you've got that snowball effic of all the people in the food chain. And when you get all those people in the food chain, what you can do and what you should do. If, particularly if you average deal value is, I don't know, north of fifty, eighty hundred k dollars, where you can invest a little bit in your cust of cells and you should, ever, more proactive, be they are function and more practive. I S A function. It's to actually practically engage with contact and just go and talk to them and say, look, with in lots of activity from some of your colleagues, what will evel? But were just trying to understand what's going on. But most importantly, if you are in that approach, you can almost get a very soft approach of thing. Well, there is lots of information available. Whatever were what exactly are you looking after? So we can, I can boil it down and give it to you right. So in a nice way you're basically helping them to find information and as you are doing so, you also qualifying them. But I don't fortunately, I don't see that happening often enough. But that's that's that's it. That's a little frustration at I will keep and hopefully we saw that tissue out two projects for our clients.

Then were getting to the end of the PODCAST. A shame because of probably have another twenty thirt equation as we could have. We could have discussed in length, but I really appreciate your time and insights on the question I had for you today. I think you couple of wall story that you share the close to my heart, so I've really really appreciate it as well. I think our audience will be delighted to are you on our future ipe. Is that as the cost of the show. Through your experience, through the people that I know in your network, I think you can also bring some fantastic guests to the show, so that that's going to get more exciting for audience and we'll be able to produce a little bit more episodes, which is which is also great. But before we finish, could you please leave us the best way to contact you, the best way to engage with you if any of our listen or where true, want to take that conversation of flaying with you and discuss any of the topic we discuss in body tails with you? Yeah, I guess probably the best two places would be. The first one be my email address, which is Daniel Dot Seabrook operatics dotnet, or the alternative would be to find me on Linkedin, which is which is Dan see work. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I think been a good conversation. Looking forward to having more of these discussions with some future guests. But if you want to get in touch, that the best two means of communication. That's great. Well, many things once again done. Really appreciate your time. It's great to have gen the show and very much looking forward to you being the course and making some great stuff and carrying on a journey with us the podcast. Thanks very much. operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts of building and managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of focus, agility and scale required in today's fast and complex world of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics can help your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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