B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 2 years ago

35: How & When to Scale Marketing Operations w/ Brendan Kavaney

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Time to scale your marketing operations? That’s a good place to be — it likely means your business or industry is growing. Still, scaling marketing operations can be challenging.

On this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, we asked Brendan Kavaney to join us for this discussion. We plugged him with questions about martech, data, internal expertise, and service marketing, and he did not disappoint.

Brendan is the Global Head of Field Marketing and Demand Generation at Mindtree, an IT services company with 20k employees and $1B run rate.

You were listening to be to berevenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edgeof sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue accederation. My Name is opinion.With you and I'm yet today with Brendon Keviny from mine tree. How areyou today, Brendon? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on your show. That's an absolute pishow. So today we will be talking about whenand how to scale marketing operations, but white too big. But before weget into the details, can you please introduce yourself your role at mine tree, as well as what my intrigue does as an organization? Yeah, sure, thanks. I'll start with mine tree. Of the company, where an ITservices company. Run rate is about a billion dollars. We have twentyzeropeople, which, compared to some companies, would seem very big, but relativeto our industry, were mid size but growing very fast. We grewtwenty percent last year. I will emphasize that it's a services company, sowe're yeah, Sultan. We do two kind of major parts of consulting,both completely related Ike what we call the run and grow side of the business. So the run side of the business are all the back end systems thatare really run for efficiency, you know, so like accounting and maybe supply chainor some other things that are kind of always on and they're they're reallyabout optimizing and being efficient. And then the other half, which is wherethe hugest, biggest wave of investment you've seen over the last couple of years, is what we call digital which are like customer facing app you know,this is where you see API tools, things in the cloud that are likeneed to be super fast, change real time. Thinks facebook, Amazon andall that stuff. Now, me, I run a field marketing team,which is the team that works with the different business units we have for superb, very large business units are based on industries. So we have people whorun and their job is to honestly really be a mini cml for each ofthe business units of my company. And then also, along with that,our demands and engine are marketing technology stack.

I really am sort of the personwho put that in and and built that out for for my company,which is a really exciting, great thing to do. Actually. Okay,to brand the new you mentioned something quite interesting you. You made the dissociationbetween marketing services or marketing, you know, selvas marketing, should I say,and product marketing. So we also these company as well. So Ithink we can of fundust on the dissociation pretty well. But could you pleasecomment on what you believe the differences are between service marketing and product marketing piece? I really like that question and the reason I like that question is becauseI think one thing that we talked about, and we, I mean marketing professionals, talking to each other often, is bb versus BBC. Yeah,and that is a very clearly there's there's differentiations, right, the buyers aredifferent, all these things. However, in my case, the the realdifference I see is like product versus services. So, you know, parallel industryto mine, or the ecosystem of the industry I work in, islike software. So like the software companies, the markets and software companies, they'rethe ones who are really, you know, sort of like driving theconversation about account based marketing, for example, in these other things. And whenI look at the Services Company, so account base marketing a perfect example, we've never been anything but cow based marketing. I mean we didn't callit account Bass Marketing, but that's the only kind of marketing we ever did. Now the reason is pretty simple. My company is billion dollar run rate. We have three or fifty customers. So, you know, doesn't takesupermass to figure out that each customers are really big customer or we try toget a customer make them a really big customer. Now that's change to say. Is the nature of marketing, because we're not, you know, lookingto find, you know, look at a million people and who are thethousand best that will love our service. We're actually looking at couple hundred customersor accounts and trying to create awareness and opportunities in those counts and figure outwhen to enter. Yeah, but another thing that you mentioned in your introductionis is the world consultants and constructative?...

Do you believe you need to bemore consultative from a sales and marketing approach, which which I think are linked,because you know, it's about the message and owe you you traits andon Gage with your with your prospect always your clients. But coming back tothe question, do you believe you need to be more consultative when you aredoing selviace marketing they's just product marketing in your approach. Definitely. Yeah,absolutely. We run training programs around consultatative selling. We spend a lot oftime on sales enablement. This has happened through my career, not just inmy current company but every all the companies Miss Industry that I've worked for,which is there's three of them. And the real goal is to become apartner with your customer and discover and articulate problems together and try to build solutions. So, you know, our business is a business of fighting RP's honestly. And and what is a what is really an RFP? It's an attempt. It's not actually a defined thing. It's an attempt to define a solutionto a problem that maybe clearly defined or not. And so when you thinkabout it those terms, every RFP is a little bit different. And thisthis also will make you think about scale, because ultimately at the end of thepipe is an URFP, not the end, but whatever like in gettinggetting more business, you're actually you know, you get to the point of havingan RP or having a deal, and if every single one of thosedeals are different, you know, did the way in which is scales verydifferent than you know, piece of software that does something. You can defineexactly what that software does and you're basically trying to, you know, pushout a story around that particular piece of we can be more creative. Iguess you know it, but I do agree on this point. I thinkbeing construted heave and having as absolutely key to have a neck on Besa pushover, so be that's when you do servaces. I think that feeling ofa community, creating a commute around your bread, people using your servaces,taking about how flexiboard you are, you've donelets of things, is also veryimportant. Now, if we dig a little bit more into the the actualto pick of the conversation today, marketing...

...operation is a key function within anyorganization as it touches the data, operate the mate stack, consolidate the numbersand optimizes the the strategy of a company, because it gives you, obviously alldo the the and then it takes the details to be able to makedecision in move forward. So as a company, as companies grow, theyneed to addapt that team and obviously that text tack to scale and follow thatgrowth. So how can you identify when it's the right time for your marketingoperation team to start that scaling a process and I'll do you do it.So I think that one of the things to think about. We do thisin our budgeting process and our approaches. I mean bankers and investors would dothis all the time. It's sort of an portfolio model and this is really, you know, I'm thinking about more than Martax back or marketing technology stact. Is that you know you have the things that you know you'll need todo, like marketing automation. You know. So your big you know your marketor your eloqu or whatever, and we definitely do up my cost inour budget. And then we also try to think about it in terms oflike the effort around the components to the stack that we're going to how we'regoing to spend the money. So the or spending money on the time.So the things we know we can scale, like emailing, advertising events or somethingwill will, you know, spend the bulk of the money and thenwe'll have like some percentage of our budget and our time to do things thatare a little more experimental, and then we'll spend some time and money onthings that are really kind of a lockshout. We don't really know if they're goingto work here, honestly, and we do that every year and infact my Cmo, and he's presented about this public Lya he talks about hiringand firing your stack and that's really the approach we take. So you know, every year if, because all the contracts don't line up perfectly, wedo look at every piece we have on our stack and decide like hey,are we even going to know? We try this, but it worked andworked. The other thing to think about is really, and this in thebuying the technology. A lot of technology...

...tools are there to optimize process andthere's so many, I'm going to think if you if you go to theMartech conference and you see that slide that's kind of famous. What has allthe logos of all that, like marketing, technology things. So many tools arereally the optimize some tiny thing, and the thing you have to askyourself as a customer or someone who's buying those tools is is this process runningat scale where we need to spend time to really tweak it? Like we'renot even running at scale. So if the engine not running, don't likebuy a piece to try to tweak and optimize it absolutely okay, and butplunging you stop what would be a stall to like case you think you needmucketing with the mission from day one. Seems to be the even from theyelps fix. But what's on the what's all the key thoughts of a technology? Stecha, and I don't likes that Shal tapelefganization, but we do upinto walk these lots of stell tips. I'll do you even stop the joiningbecause we spook about the optimization moving. That what he's down because stocks andpoint for everyone. That you would recommend? Yeah, so, for especially inservices, where it's very like you mentioned consultative. It's relationship driven,sales driven kind of environment, I think crm and marketing automation are like thekey like places to start. And by marketing automation I mean the systems.We all know, the part Ots, the big kind of sognisficated emailing systems. In a small you know, we're pretty big, right, so wejust like put it in, we just see it. We you know,we had one in, we had a market automation system. We ripped itout, we put a new one in. But if you know, if you'resmall and you're growing. You could definitely start with like a a simplersort of mailing system on mail champ or constant contact or something that was likedoesn't cost you a lot of money. And then if you're getting to thepoint where you're like wow, you know, we're setting a lot of emails,we're doing a lot of analysis, and what happens? Then you startthinking about the next step, like maybe we need more tools, you know, so don't over buy. The other thing to think about, which whichis, you know, with some self research, you can figure it out. But depending on what you buy,...

...you know who, what is yourinternal team structure and what is their ability to kind of run the tools andwhat kind of talent you need in house, because you'll find that some tools youyou might end up spending more on consulting to run the tools and you'respending on the tool yourself itself. That makes stuff make sense. You needto make sure that you've good test if you'll get the engine, you willneed to have a pitch for to put in so that that takes that nextto six does right. Well, one of the biggest challenge that that wesee and par secularity when we engage with bucketing operations teams when we, youknow, I'll clients or prospect at the beginning of a program of all,the course of a program I guess, is the challenge of absolutely everyone isto keep the database up to date and nthy clean, you know, increasingresponse rate, all that sort of great stuff. Do you have an ifyou do, can you share any tricks to keep your database cleans and updated? So, yeah, I think you are right that keeping your data andorder is super important. I mean it's a paramount important actually, and it'svery easy to let it go. It's easy to you know it, weknow you're and your it's cheaper and cheaper to keep a bunch of data.I mean it almost cost nothing. I mean in my industry when I startedtwelve years ago, I mean we couldn't even have these databases. They wereprohibitively expensive. And now you can have a startup of for people and spenda thousand bucks a month and have a huge start of martextact that you cansteal really quickly. But I think a governance structure is important. You needstakeholders in the company who find it important and they have to spread across theorgan it can't be an enthusiastic data minded person who's, you know, deepdown in the organ only that person could be super important, obviously, butyou need people at different levels. And then in the consumption of the datainternally, you need you need to make sure it's consumable in the way that'srelevant. So the sales team, they want to know pipeline. I'll giveyou a really simple example. We had...

...a like a marketer and they're doinga program and stuff and they sent a report and the report came internally likea report of some email thing, and the sale team started asking about openrates, of click rates, only six. And so what we talked about internallyis that, hey, look that sales team. They have a targetlist of accounts, like a hundred accounts. They cared about engagement from those accounts. So when you report to them, you give them engagement. These arethe people from these accounts that open, click download of papers, attended events. That's super important to them. The rest of it is it's importantto us as marketers because I want to be a efficient but for them it'snot. It's not that part. We don't really don't want them to beconcerned with it. Honestly, and I think that parts really important. ButI think to answer your question about keeping the data clean, I think itcomes down to governance and the commitment to governance and really deciding like okay,you know, every quarter, every year, whatever, we're going to do this, we're going to clean this, we're going to delete that, andand essentially, you know, buying in. It's sticking to that model. Otherwise, otherwise something just kind of proliferates. Is it's almost like a no purseway. So can this is my this is my calendall for my comb thingsover the next six months. So I wouldn't tell get such and such aGotsi code in such and such territory and I wouldn't I get such and suchalso know was in that. That's equally was in the territory. was dismissingGIES. Would you say it's few, you've got that sort of the sequenceon the the sequence, but the the frequency a twitch. You would becleansing that data. He almost based on the comp thing that you are aboutto run. Or would you say no, it's okay, once a year ortwice, so you know, you just review absolutely everything in teens,everything in the other tobase. So for us it's a little more of theladder. Now. The reason is, and this comes down to the service. So if I you know, the services versus product marketing that we talkedabout earlier, there's a few components to that and one of the components,and this if you would talk to, say, our media partner or oneof the vendors I've worked with, they would this, is like the brokenrecord brand and kind of thing is that. I'm like, I want you toget in your head that our target...

...list of static, it doesn't change, it's a hundred thousand people and that it's never changing. And it's nottrue that it never changes, but it changes little enough that the mentality ofall the people who are executing against that target audience. I want them tothink that way. I don't want them to think like a media team wouldthink, hey, this clicks really well in this persona, let me gocre hit that persona all over the place, because that doesn't matter for us.What matters for us is that the people in those accounts that we're targetingare seeing our ads and clicking on our stuff and attending our stuff now today. The question you had about the kind of a campaign. That's areally good example because we had a campaign for the cruise line industry and whatwe learned and the marketing member who runs like super good you sort of understandsall the stuff really kind of big picture and also understands the details, andshe saw that she was like talking to the media agency and that people wereclicking down in the cruise industry and downloading this report that we had and realizing, yes, they worked for that cruise line, but they were you canimagine how many people work for cruise lines right who are just fast and theships and things, but what we really need is we need like their corporateIp corporate people, and so they really quickly saw that adjusted and we hadhad that problem in the past, especially with media. So we kind ofknew. We you know, we have like learned our lesson, but that'ssuper important. So, like our target list is really key. So wewould rather spend more time and money, honestly, to get to the rightpeople in a company. Then you know then just the volume and efficiency ofyeah, and this because I mentioned their lines. I mean it is kindof like stuffing we learned is like airline hotels. You know, cruise lines, all these hospitality things. There's a million. So if you tried to, for example, run a campaign for hotels and you want to identify iteammanagers or it directors or something, every hotel the middle of Iowa has likean it person who runs like your Internet and stuff. But that's not ourtarget. We're talking about the corporate people. Of course, that's I think thatmakes stuff, makes sense. And what do they ca about? Theway you explain and you show your wall...

...story with this is that you reallycare about the resource of the campaign. You could idea in the cliques andthe de open except for exit from but it's a really quitity to teams.But I think the engagement first, most importantly, having the engagement with theright people. So we should the exact semimental it's when it comes to runningcompanies. He's outset as a marketing, comping fall client. So thanks forit. BRANA. Really appreciates your time and insight on all my questions today. If any off listen, know would like to get in touch with you. What is the best platform, the best way to engage with you?It is linkedin. My name is unique and ask if you just search myname I think you'll find me reading coviny, but thank you. It's been reallygood. I find this super interesting and I do have a lot ofpassion for data and Mar Tech and gailing marketing. So thanks for having meon your show. I can tell what thanks to you as well, andit was great to have you under shore today. Thank you. operatics hasredefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional conceptsof building and managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed for many years, companiesare struggling with a lack of focus, agility and scale required in today's fastand complex world of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics can help your companyaccelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be tob revenue acceleration.To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favoritepodcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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