B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 3 years ago

35: How & When to Scale Marketing Operations w/ Brendan Kavaney

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Time to scale your marketing operations? That’s a good place to be — it likely means your business or industry is growing. Still, scaling marketing operations can be challenging.

On this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, we asked Brendan Kavaney to join us for this discussion. We plugged him with questions about martech, data, internal expertise, and service marketing, and he did not disappoint.

Brendan is the Global Head of Field Marketing and Demand Generation at Mindtree, an IT services company with 20k employees and $1B run rate.

You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue accederation. My Name is opinion. With you and I'm yet today with Brendon Keviny from mine tree. How are you today, Brendon? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on your show. That's an absolute pishow. So today we will be talking about when and how to scale marketing operations, but white too big. But before we get into the details, can you please introduce yourself your role at mine tree, as well as what my intrigue does as an organization? Yeah, sure, thanks. I'll start with mine tree. Of the company, where an IT services company. Run rate is about a billion dollars. We have twentyzero people, which, compared to some companies, would seem very big, but relative to our industry, were mid size but growing very fast. We grew twenty percent last year. I will emphasize that it's a services company, so we're yeah, Sultan. We do two kind of major parts of consulting, both completely related Ike what we call the run and grow side of the business. So the run side of the business are all the back end systems that are really run for efficiency, you know, so like accounting and maybe supply chain or some other things that are kind of always on and they're they're really about optimizing and being efficient. And then the other half, which is where the hugest, biggest wave of investment you've seen over the last couple of years, is what we call digital which are like customer facing app you know, this is where you see API tools, things in the cloud that are like need to be super fast, change real time. Thinks facebook, Amazon and all that stuff. Now, me, I run a field marketing team, which is the team that works with the different business units we have for superb, very large business units are based on industries. So we have people who run and their job is to honestly really be a mini cml for each of the business units of my company. And then also, along with that, our demands and engine are marketing technology stack.

I really am sort of the person who put that in and and built that out for for my company, which is a really exciting, great thing to do. Actually. Okay, to brand the new you mentioned something quite interesting you. You made the dissociation between marketing services or marketing, you know, selvas marketing, should I say, and product marketing. So we also these company as well. So I think we can of fundust on the dissociation pretty well. But could you please comment on what you believe the differences are between service marketing and product marketing piece? I really like that question and the reason I like that question is because I think one thing that we talked about, and we, I mean marketing professionals, talking to each other often, is bb versus BBC. Yeah, and that is a very clearly there's there's differentiations, right, the buyers are different, all these things. However, in my case, the the real difference I see is like product versus services. So, you know, parallel industry to mine, or the ecosystem of the industry I work in, is like software. So like the software companies, the markets and software companies, they're the ones who are really, you know, sort of like driving the conversation about account based marketing, for example, in these other things. And when I look at the Services Company, so account base marketing a perfect example, we've never been anything but cow based marketing. I mean we didn't call it account Bass Marketing, but that's the only kind of marketing we ever did. Now the reason is pretty simple. My company is billion dollar run rate. We have three or fifty customers. So, you know, doesn't take supermass to figure out that each customers are really big customer or we try to get a customer make them a really big customer. Now that's change to say. Is the nature of marketing, because we're not, you know, looking to find, you know, look at a million people and who are the thousand best that will love our service. We're actually looking at couple hundred customers or accounts and trying to create awareness and opportunities in those counts and figure out when to enter. Yeah, but another thing that you mentioned in your introduction is is the world consultants and constructative?...

Do you believe you need to be more consultative from a sales and marketing approach, which which I think are linked, because you know, it's about the message and owe you you traits and on Gage with your with your prospect always your clients. But coming back to the question, do you believe you need to be more consultative when you are doing selviace marketing they's just product marketing in your approach. Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. We run training programs around consultatative selling. We spend a lot of time on sales enablement. This has happened through my career, not just in my current company but every all the companies Miss Industry that I've worked for, which is there's three of them. And the real goal is to become a partner with your customer and discover and articulate problems together and try to build solutions. So, you know, our business is a business of fighting RP's honestly. And and what is a what is really an RFP? It's an attempt. It's not actually a defined thing. It's an attempt to define a solution to a problem that maybe clearly defined or not. And so when you think about it those terms, every RFP is a little bit different. And this this also will make you think about scale, because ultimately at the end of the pipe is an URFP, not the end, but whatever like in getting getting more business, you're actually you know, you get to the point of having an RP or having a deal, and if every single one of those deals are different, you know, did the way in which is scales very different than you know, piece of software that does something. You can define exactly what that software does and you're basically trying to, you know, push out a story around that particular piece of we can be more creative. I guess you know it, but I do agree on this point. I think being construted heave and having as absolutely key to have a neck on Besa push over, so be that's when you do servaces. I think that feeling of a community, creating a commute around your bread, people using your servaces, taking about how flexiboard you are, you've donelets of things, is also very important. Now, if we dig a little bit more into the the actual to pick of the conversation today, marketing...

...operation is a key function within any organization as it touches the data, operate the mate stack, consolidate the numbers and optimizes the the strategy of a company, because it gives you, obviously all do the the and then it takes the details to be able to make decision in move forward. So as a company, as companies grow, they need to addapt that team and obviously that text tack to scale and follow that growth. So how can you identify when it's the right time for your marketing operation team to start that scaling a process and I'll do you do it. So I think that one of the things to think about. We do this in our budgeting process and our approaches. I mean bankers and investors would do this all the time. It's sort of an portfolio model and this is really, you know, I'm thinking about more than Martax back or marketing technology stact. Is that you know you have the things that you know you'll need to do, like marketing automation. You know. So your big you know your market or your eloqu or whatever, and we definitely do up my cost in our budget. And then we also try to think about it in terms of like the effort around the components to the stack that we're going to how we're going to spend the money. So the or spending money on the time. So the things we know we can scale, like emailing, advertising events or something will will, you know, spend the bulk of the money and then we'll have like some percentage of our budget and our time to do things that are a little more experimental, and then we'll spend some time and money on things that are really kind of a lockshout. We don't really know if they're going to work here, honestly, and we do that every year and in fact my Cmo, and he's presented about this public Lya he talks about hiring and firing your stack and that's really the approach we take. So you know, every year if, because all the contracts don't line up perfectly, we do look at every piece we have on our stack and decide like hey, are we even going to know? We try this, but it worked and worked. The other thing to think about is really, and this in the buying the technology. A lot of technology...

...tools are there to optimize process and there's so many, I'm going to think if you if you go to the Martech conference and you see that slide that's kind of famous. What has all the logos of all that, like marketing, technology things. So many tools are really the optimize some tiny thing, and the thing you have to ask yourself as a customer or someone who's buying those tools is is this process running at scale where we need to spend time to really tweak it? Like we're not even running at scale. So if the engine not running, don't like buy a piece to try to tweak and optimize it absolutely okay, and but plunging you stop what would be a stall to like case you think you need mucketing with the mission from day one. Seems to be the even from the yelps fix. But what's on the what's all the key thoughts of a technology? Stecha, and I don't likes that Shal tapelefganization, but we do up into walk these lots of stell tips. I'll do you even stop the joining because we spook about the optimization moving. That what he's down because stocks and point for everyone. That you would recommend? Yeah, so, for especially in services, where it's very like you mentioned consultative. It's relationship driven, sales driven kind of environment, I think crm and marketing automation are like the key like places to start. And by marketing automation I mean the systems. We all know, the part Ots, the big kind of sognisficated emailing systems. In a small you know, we're pretty big, right, so we just like put it in, we just see it. We you know, we had one in, we had a market automation system. We ripped it out, we put a new one in. But if you know, if you're small and you're growing. You could definitely start with like a a simpler sort of mailing system on mail champ or constant contact or something that was like doesn't cost you a lot of money. And then if you're getting to the point where you're like wow, you know, we're setting a lot of emails, we're doing a lot of analysis, and what happens? Then you start thinking about the next step, like maybe we need more tools, you know, so don't over buy. The other thing to think about, which which is, you know, with some self research, you can figure it out. But depending on what you buy,...

...you know who, what is your internal team structure and what is their ability to kind of run the tools and what kind of talent you need in house, because you'll find that some tools you you might end up spending more on consulting to run the tools and you're spending on the tool yourself itself. That makes stuff make sense. You need to make sure that you've good test if you'll get the engine, you will need to have a pitch for to put in so that that takes that next to six does right. Well, one of the biggest challenge that that we see and par secularity when we engage with bucketing operations teams when we, you know, I'll clients or prospect at the beginning of a program of all, the course of a program I guess, is the challenge of absolutely everyone is to keep the database up to date and nthy clean, you know, increasing response rate, all that sort of great stuff. Do you have an if you do, can you share any tricks to keep your database cleans and updated? So, yeah, I think you are right that keeping your data and order is super important. I mean it's a paramount important actually, and it's very easy to let it go. It's easy to you know it, we know you're and your it's cheaper and cheaper to keep a bunch of data. I mean it almost cost nothing. I mean in my industry when I started twelve years ago, I mean we couldn't even have these databases. They were prohibitively expensive. And now you can have a startup of for people and spend a thousand bucks a month and have a huge start of martextact that you can steal really quickly. But I think a governance structure is important. You need stakeholders in the company who find it important and they have to spread across the organ it can't be an enthusiastic data minded person who's, you know, deep down in the organ only that person could be super important, obviously, but you need people at different levels. And then in the consumption of the data internally, you need you need to make sure it's consumable in the way that's relevant. So the sales team, they want to know pipeline. I'll give you a really simple example. We had...

...a like a marketer and they're doing a program and stuff and they sent a report and the report came internally like a report of some email thing, and the sale team started asking about open rates, of click rates, only six. And so what we talked about internally is that, hey, look that sales team. They have a target list of accounts, like a hundred accounts. They cared about engagement from those accounts. So when you report to them, you give them engagement. These are the people from these accounts that open, click download of papers, attended events. That's super important to them. The rest of it is it's important to us as marketers because I want to be a efficient but for them it's not. It's not that part. We don't really don't want them to be concerned with it. Honestly, and I think that parts really important. But I think to answer your question about keeping the data clean, I think it comes down to governance and the commitment to governance and really deciding like okay, you know, every quarter, every year, whatever, we're going to do this, we're going to clean this, we're going to delete that, and and essentially, you know, buying in. It's sticking to that model. Otherwise, otherwise something just kind of proliferates. Is it's almost like a no purseway. So can this is my this is my calendall for my comb things over the next six months. So I wouldn't tell get such and such a Gotsi code in such and such territory and I wouldn't I get such and such also know was in that. That's equally was in the territory. was dismissing GIES. Would you say it's few, you've got that sort of the sequence on the the sequence, but the the frequency a twitch. You would be cleansing that data. He almost based on the comp thing that you are about to run. Or would you say no, it's okay, once a year or twice, so you know, you just review absolutely everything in teens, everything in the other tobase. So for us it's a little more of the ladder. Now. The reason is, and this comes down to the service. So if I you know, the services versus product marketing that we talked about earlier, there's a few components to that and one of the components, and this if you would talk to, say, our media partner or one of the vendors I've worked with, they would this, is like the broken record brand and kind of thing is that. I'm like, I want you to get in your head that our target...

...list of static, it doesn't change, it's a hundred thousand people and that it's never changing. And it's not true that it never changes, but it changes little enough that the mentality of all the people who are executing against that target audience. I want them to think that way. I don't want them to think like a media team would think, hey, this clicks really well in this persona, let me go cre hit that persona all over the place, because that doesn't matter for us. What matters for us is that the people in those accounts that we're targeting are seeing our ads and clicking on our stuff and attending our stuff now to day. The question you had about the kind of a campaign. That's a really good example because we had a campaign for the cruise line industry and what we learned and the marketing member who runs like super good you sort of understands all the stuff really kind of big picture and also understands the details, and she saw that she was like talking to the media agency and that people were clicking down in the cruise industry and downloading this report that we had and realizing, yes, they worked for that cruise line, but they were you can imagine how many people work for cruise lines right who are just fast and the ships and things, but what we really need is we need like their corporate Ip corporate people, and so they really quickly saw that adjusted and we had had that problem in the past, especially with media. So we kind of knew. We you know, we have like learned our lesson, but that's super important. So, like our target list is really key. So we would rather spend more time and money, honestly, to get to the right people in a company. Then you know then just the volume and efficiency of yeah, and this because I mentioned their lines. I mean it is kind of like stuffing we learned is like airline hotels. You know, cruise lines, all these hospitality things. There's a million. So if you tried to, for example, run a campaign for hotels and you want to identify iteam managers or it directors or something, every hotel the middle of Iowa has like an it person who runs like your Internet and stuff. But that's not our target. We're talking about the corporate people. Of course, that's I think that makes stuff, makes sense. And what do they ca about? The way you explain and you show your wall...

...story with this is that you really care about the resource of the campaign. You could idea in the cliques and the de open except for exit from but it's a really quitity to teams. But I think the engagement first, most importantly, having the engagement with the right people. So we should the exact semimental it's when it comes to running companies. He's outset as a marketing, comping fall client. So thanks for it. BRANA. Really appreciates your time and insight on all my questions today. If any off listen, know would like to get in touch with you. What is the best platform, the best way to engage with you? It is linkedin. My name is unique and ask if you just search my name I think you'll find me reading coviny, but thank you. It's been really good. I find this super interesting and I do have a lot of passion for data and Mar Tech and gailing marketing. So thanks for having me on your show. I can tell what thanks to you as well, and it was great to have you under shore today. Thank you. operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts of building and managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of focus, agility and scale required in today's fast and complex world of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics can help your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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