B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 3 years ago

38: Scaling Sales in Fast-Growing B2B Tech Companies w/ Chris Doggett


Your tech company is growing, fast. Almost too fast. Maybe it’s time to scale our sales program?

First of all, remember: This is a good problem to have. (On that note, congrats.)

Secondly, listen to Chris Doggett, Chief Sales Officer at Fuze. He has some amazing advice on how to scale, what KPIs to use, and how to keep your employees as you scale your sales at your B2B tech company.

His advice is built on 15+ years of corporate sales, operations, and head of channels. His experience spans from COO to Director of Global Channel Sales, to VP to SVP, so he’s seen the entire sales picture.

He came on the B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast and gave us this message.

You were listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Welcome to be. To be a riving the acceleration. My name is already am with you and have the pleasure to welcome Chris Duggett, with chief cells officer at fuse. Are You doing today, Chris? I'm doing well or alien. How are you? I am very good. Thank you. So the topic for today is, quote, a broad one, as with your both you need to discuss in preparation to the podcast. It's about scaling cells in fast growing be to be tech companies. So that's a bit of a mouthful and I think the topic itself is full of full of interesting suby items. But before we go into the detail of the conversation, would you mind introducing your self and what you do? For few other not at all. So I'm the chief sales officer refuse, but really my responsibility is around all of sales and also professional services. Okay, so for us that's about how we deliver, activate and configure and deliver our service to to customers, including helping them with adoption, moving from a legacy system to the cloud. Yeah, and and everything that comes with transforming their organization. Okay, that sounds fascinating. So you have an extensive experience. You've been walking with lots of different organization, some of the the one that we picked up us. So First UK company that you are grows out of the UK Gaspell Ski, Russian Organization that you try to grow outside of Fresha. So basically, what I'm getting to is my first question is that you've got a ton of experience in walking with lots of different companies a different stage of that growth, with market at a different level of maturity, but also in time of Fuzz Grad place maybe in the different space. So my first question is really a wrong from your perspective. What are the signs that you need to identify as an organization to know that it's time to scale? But also, I'll do you, expand into different region as a broad question. So so it's a great question and there is a lot to talk about, as you mentioned, in terms of scalability. The first one great, great question. How do you know when? What is the catalyst for looking at scalability? For a lot of companies, especially early stage companies. It tends to be driven by actually they're reacting to something. So they may have a lot of inbound inquiries and they can't keep up with the leaflow sometimes, or they have partners, if they have a partner model, who are getting frustrated because the sales team is not being as responsive enough on quoting and on the sales process. That's another example you may actually see sometimes your sales managers who manage a team asking for more people and quota, and that's usually sign. Yes, they all they will always ask for more people and Resources and more leads, but when they're willing to take quota along with it, that's and you know that they believe that there's an opportunity for growth as certain. So you see lots of things where typically, small companies are going to be more reactive because they're being more successful than they even planned on. Yes, great, yeah, and they have to try to put things in place to capture the opportunity. For larger companies, it tends to be more proactive, it tends to be more the result of a planning process and when you're at a company, let's say you're at a company that's a fifty or a hundred million dollar company and your board of Directors, in your CEO says we want to be a half a billion dollar company or a Billion Dollar Company. Well, you have to ask yourself, well, wow, how are we going to get that change? Cusu early became he said. Yet that's a very different size and where we are today. How are we going to do that? And that usually causes you to be more proactive. There's a famous quote from a hockey player, Wayne Gretzky. I'm sure you've heard it because we use it a lot in sales. Absolutely, but he said I don't skate to where the PUCK is, I skate to where the puck is going to be, and it's like a game of chess. Yes, you have to think a few moves down the board to what's going to happen next. Yet and then work backwards from certay. So sometimes the catalysts, the the why you're doing scalability ...

...is actually that planning process. Okay, that makes nothing sense. And what about the going into the different Resian? I mean, do you think it takes different plover of skating, or do you think the size of the company also Meta in that sort of feel large organization. You may be already loss of fridges. You may be looking for more crimularity. But what's the most complex you fee, the most complexive fall sport company to go into an original for on or compaiy to get more grunting our teen existing region? It's a great question. I think when companies look at scaling and expanding there's always a risk. Can the risk is that they try to expand to scale in too many ways. Yeah, geography is one which is obvious. Yeah, but geography is not actually the easiest way to scale your business up. Potentially, in some countries it's very hard to go from one country to another or one region to another because of business differences or cultural differences or even political difference. Yes, yeah, and people think, Oh, it'll be easy, we can we sell here, we can sell there. And sometimes it's the market is in a different place or or what you need to do to start a business there is very different. Something we've seen a lot more recently around privacy and security. Are Regulations as so geographical expansion is one way to expand, but you can also expand by going from let's say, a direct sales model to a partner model that can give you a huge scaleability. You can expand with products, with adding different products to the portfolio. Yeah, you can, of course, do something really simple, Agis. Yes, in the acquisition you can. You can acquire another team or build your team out. Just go, you know, start to build out of so there are lots of ways to scale business. Some of them are riskier and harder than others. Few mentions of it rate. I I can of leading nicely bridging me to my expression, which is around the channel. So in preparation to the PODCASTS, you you explain to me some of the stuff you're done. We so fullst and and being them to put the channel change the Mentalit t're ready pushing at channel. You. That's extremely successfully. So who you please shows as analogiens? YEA like Staliens off skating successfuls Rogan again, very wide open question, but if you can every to breggee down, they would be right. No, absolutely, I'd be happy to. It is it's something that that is very near and dear to my heart, and the reason for that is I started out in my technology career in the channel. I actually worked for a large consulting company doing system integration work and I later worked for a couple of consultancies, yeah, that were very specialized around security, and so what happened was I learned how partners, different types of partners, run their businesses and I learned about how much variety there is under that name, the channel. There are many, many, many different business models and approaches. And so the answer to your question about ski about scaling by going, say, from a direct model to channel, as we did its AF fos. For me, the most important thing about that is understanding, first which types of partners yet are the best ones for you to work with, how they run their business, the business models for them and therefore how you can structure a program and a partnership that has the right value proposition for both you and your partners, so that when when they are approached by members of your team and and people are trying to work with them, it's sort of an automatically a good fit because it's been structured properly from the beginning. And I think that's that's really, really important. And you also need to recognize that there are a one size fits all. Approaching Channel is the wrong approach for pretty much any company, because there will be types of partner models that work well for your business and there are others that you probably won't be ready for. And one mistake I see companies make a lot is they think, well, I'm going to go with the biggest brand names, for example. You know, they players in the channel that everybody has heard or when they can. Yeah, I mean, number one, do you have anything of real value to they sit a big enough for that alleaball for your yeah, to get their attention, to even get their mund share. But number two, are you ready to partner with them from a technology perspective, from an operational perspective, for yea, from a strategy, sales and marketing strategy perspective, to have the right tools at your disposal. If you don't, it's a mistake.

You can spend a lot of time and energy on something that ultimately doesn't go anywhere. That just becomes a big wasted investment. So I think with respect to building are building channel programs, you must start from the partner and work back and you must understand what your best match is and the strengths that you have and and the value that you can bring and structure it that way and then plan to build out later. You can always start with small, focused partners and expand too much bigger ones as you get bigger. But going the other way sometimes doesn't work. So bring me to those all cushion about the one see under twitsia, the distribution model, to basic a. So I would expect to what keep to come first place on lets we explain that sort of fog any crows and you maybe my own destining of what you're saying is like you should go full quit to teep out. Now that's just avodium approach. So you find the right guys, the right people. People at electriality care about what you do, although some of the way you can bring to the pot for you on though, some of the way you can bring to that and user and basically on those not you would bring something to them that will ease help them to keep a client or them to increase the revenue generating from a clients or and them to differentiate themselves in a competitive market. Vlsus as a pot. Okay, so that's that's like. Now come coming to the scalability. There is a scalability within the channel, which is again moving from a one tail to a Tutia and again send question against you, which is a tough one, and because you we depend on the set of organization and that growth callcentage or that gross curve. Is when would you say it's a good time to think about Twitya? When you think it is time to say, okay, we're going to bring distribution, we can give a little bit more away, because we just want to get yet take away from managing this reselves. Yes, it's a great question and it's one that people like us are often asked. Yeah, especially by by executives and board members who use a husually also that the question. Yeah, we don't know the channel well or don't understand the model as well as perhaps they should. First of all, I think your you've described the normal approach, which is you start small and you look for a few quality partners that you can develop a strong partnership with. Yeah, that's the usually the first step in any type of channel program to try to go out and go a mile wide and an inch deep and sign up hundreds of partners and just give them a bunch of collateral and hope that somebody sells something is is often a big mistake and usually with distribution, with a two tier model, you're doing that, you're using distributors to scale because they have immediate access. They provide immediate access to thousands of partners in any given geography and they can on a high scale basis. They can go out and help you with communications, with your value prop with recruitment and training and but really distributors fundamentally were originally about scale in terms of logistics yet and in terms of billing. See are things like Yah so. So you have to realize that's where they are. Their fundamental strength lies is scale, large scale channel operations, and you, course, will get there at some point. I think you know. You get there when you have a large enough channel business, not just the number of partners but the volume of deals that you're doing, that it begins to strain your operational capacity. That's often a time and that operational capacity, by the way, might be the quoting process or it might be the billing process or it might be a number of different things. For companies that are respond that make physical products, it's certainly inventory is a big, big piece of the puzzle. For software companies it's not. It's that inventory related, but some of these other functions. I think when you when you begin to feel the strain of growth and you you hit the limit of your own scalability. Is when to tier logically comes into play. However, if you wait too long it becomes difficult because that that last piece you mentioned about giving them a few points, so to speak. Essentially, you're going to be paying distribution by the time you get fairly big. It's usually millions of millions of dollars that there are those few points and if you wait too long that can put can pose some challenges in...

...the the short term planning process. You know, I've been asked before by board member. How do we replace the revenue it's going to the distribution? That's that we are now giving to the distributor effectively, and the answer is by unleashing that that scalability. Yeah, by taking, you know, having the right programs in place and taking trading some margin for for a lot more scale. You're a lot of volume and it's the old you can make it up on volume addition. That's so. That makes sense. Like caution is, don't wait too late, though, because the further along you've got, the more quote unquote expensive it's, so to speak, the biggest the move will be, as well as I guess from the start of the decision. If you've got millions and mediums, the biggest impact would you from a bulk bells big tie from, you know, influencing a boveyid. They both US Pectina, making people don those on that he's much mul to give away the tea exactly, which is often the biggest challenge in going from a direct to his channel sales model. Or actually the the people who are in senior management or executives or board members who perhaps don't understand the model. You get these crazy questions like, wait a minute, how does this make sense? We're going to pay them this much in commission or this much in margin? I know you and I talked about that earlier and for me it's a question of ship, of making sure they understand the whole picture, the strategy, and is it makes sense. Did you have to give them a type of friend because the same from us be extremely difficult to get, because you probably know what you can drive, but you kind of driving someone to drive someone else. So it's time from it's got to be very difficulty to sail as well. It is because usually things take longer to go from zero hundred and sixty and the channel model then that that should be a quarter or two. And then, yeah, then your management team wants but again this way. This is why it comes back to strategy and to this typic of scalability. Absolutely so another way that we've other lot in. As you know, we've got a mixture of crimes, we've got some very well established, very famous clients, but we've also got a bunch of startups and organization at the probably less of Brando one. As you know, people don't speak about them in the streets and people don't twit about them exit tr Exeter so. But what we see lots of organization scaling through converting in boundaries, generating a lots of inbounds demands online, and then they've got big teams converting that and, you know, basically growing sales through not just world of mass but really a marketing Meshin. So again I'm asking me the question of the time frame, and I do what stage, but at what point you think of Vendo, can really start to realize more or solely rely on those inbounds, on generating revenues from marketing? Basically, it's a great question and I think the answer often is similar to the to the question about to tier model. Companies want to get to the point where they've they start to develop some real brand awareness in their market and actually brand pull. Yeah, we're customers are asking partners about your solution and where customers we know that that customers today spend sixty or more percent of the of the buying process doing their own research, talking to piers, reading reviews, whether these areas the channel as well. Yes, speaking to the channel, getting getting references and, of course, doing online research, reading research reports, etc. That you up to sixty percent of the effort of the say of the decisionmaking process happens before they ever contact you as a vendor. So if you have good brand pull, if you have good brand awareness, you will usually be part of the selection set when the window of opportunity, when the customer is entering a buying cycle, is happening. Yeah, that's what you want, that's the instinct. But of course, for a startup, as you mentioned, for you have many startups you work with. They don't have a multimillion dollar marketing budget or, for that matter, a multimillion dollar advertising budget to go out and canvass every airport and and every radio station and and all of that, and and so the I think the answer to the question is the point when you can really heavily rely on on marketing is when you when you reach that point of rand awareness, starting to build mainstreams. Okay, that that brand pull I'm talking about starting to happen.

Yeah, up until then you really have to work hard, often with startups, first with the direct sales team and then going out and trying to proactively reach out and contact process spects. And that, of course, is an expensive, difficult model. It's an expensive one and it doesn't scale well. Yeah, you can only scale your sales team so big if they're proactively certing, know, cold calling and doing outreach. And I think the way that you do that is you start with a focused approach on which customers you're going after. Yep, sighs industry. The more often account Bas approblem, more of an account place marketing approach, which buyers within the company etc. And you and you make sure you've got a really good value prop and and an inbound approach to get their attention and, of course, that you can meet a real need that they have, that there's a strong why. And Yeah, and why now? For your solution and and of course, with sales teams you have to also teach them how to disqualify early and often. You don't want them to Ug the opportunity. That's right. I think that's the prime within bound. You know it. Not So long ago I was I was invited to an organization that an insight sense team and I was having a meeting funds of complete different reason, but the CMO ask me the questions. So we've got an issue. We create more in bounds but we've got less deals. So basically we increase the marketing input drastically by stronger persons, but we don't really see our closing rate evolving. We don't see, you know, I actually is going down because we get to some sort of deals from all leads don't make sense. As a I think I may know what the issue is. And we went to the flow and they managed to put all the gate together as well. How many of you guys have a prospectating you less? Well, so those guys was selling. You actually quote a carrying inside reps sell. Many of you guys, have you seen what you are the prospect last month saying you think to you, I am very sorry I really, really, really really wanted to buy your stuff, but my bus you say you to go with that as a company and I am so disappointing. I'm so annoyed. I really wanted to give you the deal. And probably ninety percent of them raise their hands. I say, how many of you have all that more than straight time, less mounts, and I probably at there was a fifty percent of the way that that raised that and put the other harmor I want at alders. You just bucking at the wrong tree, you know. And what you've got with inquiry, the people a treat do the research people. I will spend time doing things etc. Make you feel very comfortable in the cells process. I mean probably have been in a seals process to really that authority is very important. And sometimes selling a big deal is not to a nice person, rectuly, someone which will challenge you and you challenge them back and it's a bit of a healthy battle to get to where you want to be. But when you are a bit more of an earlier you know less match you, I guess sells individual find that someone respond to the for someone where you back the respond to your email makes you feel very good. Basically make you focus, something based on a great you feel about it, was on codifying property. So that was made their story to to a later. The point that you just made. You're absolutely right, and this is a very, very common problem, especially in younger companies or smaller companies, with the younger sales teams. Cold calling and outreach is hard. Yeah, it's hard, especially you know you, because you have to get a lot of notes before somebody will even talk to you. And so of course you, as you say, you hug that opportunity. If somebody's all, somebody's talking to me. I want to do this. It's a great first step, but it's only a foot in the door, as they say. We talked about it our company, with the sales team that I work with, going about going wide in the account. That's pretty car and it's the thing about to make. Yes, but something more, just straight light on. That's in bound. So I hadn't even bound from Chris Criz he's a nice guy, he's my trump and within the account, what does that mean? You have to be the Chumpion, not that guy. That's right. Just go and speak to people. Why are you using someone to go and speak to you and you'll be out of to those all people who does that. That's right. So you have to you have to build a strong term champion and you have to test your champions right, you have to. You have to be able to make sure that your champion, maybe maybe not the decisionmaker, but if someone would influence, someone who you can work with to understand the needs of the organization and build a strong business...

...case, a value proposition for that customer, and that you can equip your champion to then go to the decisionmaker, to the economic buyer, yeah, and say, look, we need to go with this company for this reason and here's what it's going to do for us. And usually that person, as you said, who's doing the research, is just a person who can get you to your champion will not be your champion, and the economic buyer, the decisionmaker or decision makers and process are even going to be above your champion. So you have to have to go wide in terms of understanding the needs of the organization and you have to go up. Yeah, and usually that's the it's it's again, and I can't days. I mean, for my perspective, marketing is like a clue, you know, model investigation. That's a great idea. You just got to and marketing is not responsible to produce business. If not, we wouldn't exist as sense people. And I guess you know it'd be so easy. It's about getting that clue and walking from that crew and it. And sometimes what we see, which is frustrating, is disposition. Get an inbound. Is it the right guy? Another, the right level of authority, Blah, blah, blathers in the same thing. Not been qualified. Move On. Well, wait a second, let's look at the R M system only touches out. Yea, in the past excess us, so we'll loose things. Actually, we think very important and I think you do it more. The large on the accounts obviously does. Yeah, if you tell the getting at ten men company, you probably want to a run right. Yeah, you have to just go quickly, exactly. Yeah, but the larger IST is but I should be another another of topic completely for the podcast, but it's such a great topic. Well, and mean, with your permission I will. I love the analogy of it being a clue in a murder. Miss Yeah, and I had never thought of it that way. But you're absolutely right. As you're scaling a company and building a sales force and building more skills and acumen in your cells force. It's very similar to detectives. Yeah, in in a police department, right the if you think about it, you have to teach them. What are the clues to look for? Who Do you talk to and what questions do you ask them to get to to figure out the story? Yeah, and what are the patterns that you look for? It's the same thing in sales when you're doing this type of an approach, and then you can refublicate that pattern. You know us, but you know that. But I was experience. You're just doing. which situation to you out? which is your use ocase? Enough, you go and very good detectives and get to the figure out who is responsible for the crime very quickly, absolutely and with a lot of accuracy, coming to this spy. So I'm getting to my favorite question. I find they wanted to ask yourself. been burning for it. So obviously, looking at your city from a long time after, it looks like he was an easy road to scale, like of Sofas, the type of Gaspell Ski. What your guys feel was working the park? You've done. So what we look at it from now is fantastic. Bettery kind. But when you probably did it on the daily basis, I would have expected that tremendous amount of tension, tremendous amount of pressure, a tremendous amount of in patients, particularly from box CEOS and things like that, and that's probably does on a daily basis, as glamorous it looks when you look back now. Okay, but that questions I'm getting to make. Question when skating, what are the KPIS? You need to money, talk closely and you know, to to assess how successful Tho the skating processes and also make decision on what's need to be writtne reviewed, what is to be killed, what it's to be invested on. It's a great question and it's an important question because if you get it's all about balance. If you get the balance wrong and you go too faster too slow, the consequences are not quid, the performance will not be good, and so kpis are really important. One thing you're looking for with scalability, obviously, is the growth rate. Yeah, you're looking for what's the velocity in the business? How quickly are things being done and yet and how fast are we growing? All right, you know, are we able to maintain or expand on that growth rate. So that's one factor. But growth rate alone is is dangerous. Right if you grow fast but you start to drive up your customer acquisition costs with an inefficient model, for example, then your you may end up in the wrong place. Yet so you have to look at efficiency and productivity in addition to to the growth rate or the velocity of the business. So efficiency can be measured by...

...things like customer acquisition cost or or cost of sales as a percentage of revenue. That's pretty easy to measure. And of course, productivity you can measure as well on, for example, of her head basis. Yet how much is each salesperson on average able to generate? So those are are a couple of things to look at. Behind them, in the bigger picture, should be the where do you plan to get to from a cost benefit perspective, because over time, as you scale a business, that one of the big goals is economy of scale. As you you're not just trying to grow your business but you're trying to to overtime make it more efficient, because often when you're a small start up and you're using a direct model, it's not very efficient but it's how you get started and then when you fast forward to the future, when you have a big company and lots of partners in an ecosystem, it can be a much more cost efficient and time efficient model. So I think you look for those things as financial metrics. However, one of the other most important things to scaling a business is people, and if you only manage by this readsheet, by the by the financial metrics, you run a big risk of going wrong with people because, of course, as you manage a sales team, for example, you have to think about what are the targets and what are the quotas and our people able to earn a good living? Yeah, or the targets set high enough that you're incentivizing the you know you're headed in the right direction, but not so high that it seems unattainable yet right? Yeah, that it's demoralizing for people because of so you have to get the blend right and that comes down to a bigger picture formula, which is how many people do I need in what areas to target, which customers to get, and getting that that formula of the business team right, the the productivity model correct, is really important. And back to your KPI is. One of the things that you need to look at is employee attention and employee development. If you're getting the balance right with your sales team and, more broadly, with other people in the team, marketing, pressness or management, they deel. Yeah, just tended to retain the talented the business. If you're doing a good job, it can be a strong driver for growth and you will see that in high employee retention numbers. Will also see that in terms of development for people. People in a very strong, productive organization will have the opportunity to progress in their career. And so my experience is the more you pay attention to it in the more effort you put into doing that right, the more the scalability and the growth comes in a healthy and productive way. And so I think you have to think about some of those softer functions as well. But soft times it's actually we are very big on promoting from wizom. Okay, but if you think about it, entry points is video. So, yeah, someone who's got very limited experience and when you promote them it's often a lot of work to get them to elevate themselves to the next role. Okay, so you may take six months to get someone to actually elevate those as. It's a six months training to move to the next role where you could work with someone in two mouths that could come and just bring ideas of what they love in the police organization. But we do really it's important to do because it creates culture and and I think there is nothing more beautiful and someone coming into the team and sitting with a lot of marketing or out of sales or out of operation or team leader and all these people at will speak to those through the recruitment process. I've been people with in that seats indust three years or yours five years, that have been promoted within the business. And if that individual sitting there is probably looking at us as an organization, Adeos are one and maybe use on want paid every little bit more, they would may say, actually, is probably better to be in this one because I may be treating a better way. I don't just want a job and I want to carry out right. So it's about draining that sort of things as well for us, and I think we called themselves, but I think that's so important overlusion that I totally agree with you it too, and there's nothing better than seeing somebody come into the organization as a video and in a year or year and a half have the opportunity to move into a sales role. It's a big job because, you pointed out, it's one where you see a certain amount of failure because it's a it's a pretty different job and it's sometimes a big jump for people.

So don't get your timing right. But it's you know you'd get the timing right. But it's also very smart because you do build a strong culture. You're also in a great position to assess does that person have the innate capability, the talent to do that? And if the rest of the team supports the model, yeah, they are going to be a safety net for that person as they make that job. Yea to try to help them along and when they're struggling and they're looking for answers, they get answers from their copies. And when you're absolutely right, you can create such a strong culture when you when you create that environment. Yeah, and it's self reinforcing and it and you develop a lot of momentum and it's free to core and it becomes really powerful. It is easier and faster to hire somebody outside who has already done the job, but it is often better, stronger and lower risk to do it internally if you do it the right way. If you just promote something from someone from Wizin, you probably would expect them to stay fund he's twice long as someone from the outside, the one who makes, someone who makes a lots of horizontal move. Well's just someone who does wealthy cord move. That's what I would get on CDs. Yes, spor comes and we you say, in that company. Have you been promoted? You once seeing all life, know all you've the nine months down, nine months now to our moms El six months. I said, is why did it? If you are a good way, I need not keeping you right. Why are you not staying and progress? A Very UN nicky yeah, it's anyways. That's so true. That's that's a that's a funny story. So we are running out of time now and I know that you need to get your plain. So thank you, Romuchre, coming with us today and that you doing the pootcasts and recording the pood guests in Pelsa. But if anyone wants to get in touch with Zu craze to is ocarry on tooking about some of the too big sweat today. Take jump right above on some things. Because of both fews and what you're doing was the best way to get to a look. That's great. First of all, thank you for having me. I'm how did you be here? It's been a pleasure as well. It's great to compare notes with your background and a shared love of sales and Growth and it of question yes, a lot of things. When we do it's fantastically it's yeah, it's a great conversation. So thank you. Best Way to get in touch with me is either to reach out to me at fuse, yeah, everybody there knows how to find me, or on Linkedin. I AMC doggets and that's the double geb tea. But it was a great visual to well the owner show today. Thank you very much, Chris. operatics has redefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companies worldwide. While the traditional concepts of building and managing inside sales teams inhouse has existed for many years, companies are struggling with a lack of focus, agility and scale required in today's fast and complex world of enterprise technology sales. See How operatics can help your company accelerate pipeline at operatics dotnet. You've been listening to be tob revenue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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