B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 1 year ago

85. How to Align Sales & Marketing w/ Andy Culligan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Whose fault is it when sales & marketing aren’t aligned?

Not sales… not marketing…

100% of the time, it’s leadership.

In this episode, we interview Andy Culligan, CMO at Leadfeeder, about how to align sales and marketing.

We talked about: Sales & marketing don’t talk because their leaders don’t talk, the role of the CEO, CMO, CRO, and CFO in creating alignment, and 4 steps to creating the alignment you desperately need.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

You 're listening to be to be revenueacceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executives stay on thecutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show hi welcome to be to be a rivenouracceleration. Myname is Olin withtnm Ertoday with Andy Culdagan ye MorNitfidel. How are you Tothey Hand Te Don? Well Don? Well, my? How are youI'm very good? Thank you very good, and our discussion today will be about outto Aligne Cousan macketing sensitive topic. Isn't it absoutely and you ll SMO, so well see if you, ifyou've got ae if you take ane party or if you, if you you know you shoud getof meeting the middle, will dist caus that in a miut but but before we gointo a conversation, can you preas introduce yourself in a little bit moredetails as well as your companlati yeah no worries so as you magine, my name isAndy Colligan, I'm an Irishman living in Vienna because I've been living inAustria R for eleven years now, so my main focus is connecting the doctetween thousand marketing teams. That's typiaclly! What they do. That'ssomething that I specialize in and that's why it was interesting leavefeader for me to come onboard as well, so I'd be B to lead funernow for sinceDecember of last year, so I'm coming into my eight month and what Itypically do is is a lign all ith the marketing efforts back into the salesefforts which well start talking about Nin a couple of Mintes when we'retalking about a line between souns marketing worgs. My background isactually in sales, so I find that there's there are some marketers thatdo start w. with the background in sales and a those of th a spoke, a jobreally benefited when trying to Allinctales and marketing teams to haveunderstood what's happening over o you Goe side of the fence, yeah andtypically a lot of markets just go straight into marketing after do in amarketing degree. So my background is, I did a marketing degree. I wentstraight into an SDR. Roll did SR work for nerty two years, like every otherSr. I have my hops and downs wante to shoot myself in the face some days,because it's so difficult. wheres other days O, you know completely on top ofthe world, because you manage Yo, get somebody connect. It's a real, toughjob. You know that I've been in account management. Then I've I've specializedin it. So after acter being in sales, and I went to specialize again inmarketing more focusing on email marketing systems in the early days ofemail, so myself and a Collee, we actually build any about marketingsystem that we used in order to sell. So it wasn't like there was always asales says hat I'm into it, and then I then became a champion at a companyfrom Mor Catto. So then I ireally learned the rogs Arond MarketingAutomation. Then digital marketing, him on board is wet as all flying marketingevents and so on. So I started working like ICROSSED EMEA in a marketing roleand then, after that I went ithe detack industry and in the tach industry, Ovbeing sort of LEA generation to my generation, focus now for the pastseven eight years. So that's my Broeis Teli, Jo Caro sixty years ago, Yortin so fresh. If you are to Deknowwhat I an I'm done, o Ip to Jomi rejim memberships on the street on commissionin December in Ireland, one tousand geurals for Jim membership only beingpaid on commission in December in the rain in Doblin. Was You SOMI member Shimo? Absolutely absolutely? But yes, I, likeso I've done every time, abot job at lead, feeder down like yeaid what we doand leave finourself I leave heer. We recognize tha the visitors that arecoming to your side, so sentile most companies will only convert. When I say,convert people come to a website, fillin a form, giving their details.Only two percent of your visitors will actually do that. Typically right, somecompanies are converting a three percent you're doing a great job right,but still, though, that still means out of every hundred people that arecomingto your sight, you're only ready getting the details of three of them.If you doing a fantastic job, so leave feter. What we do is we feel the gotthere so right. We recognize the rest of the traffic as well as the TRAFPICas converted with the rest of the traffic. That's call me what pagesthey've been looking at, how long they' been on the side for how many peoplefrom that specific company of Com and...

...what you can do with that informationas the company is really see those high intent leads so companies which arecoming to your side, which Oure intractiment a lot of content whichmaybe haven't been filling out form, so you haven't recognised who they are Wut.You still see hey this company's been looking at my pricing, page they'vebeen looking at xays ZAN product pages Ike. Can I can thenjoin into whear thatcompany or where that that visior is from so you can really understand. Okay,this specific location and then you drill into the user personas from thatspecific location that you tipically sell to and then do your o reach as asalesperson to them. So we really show that first party dad high intent dataso data the Ju on which shows inten purchase from me and that's what we do.Sorealy a tool of poitization for the SDL, so youself starting from AbcgnolisWhih, is going to go on the people, a a look at your website. That may be thebetter position to buy you at least Hav an interest rodioster for sure yeah,exactly fict Wel. Thanks for that in this, so marketing and sells alignment all right, so so allways an interesting to pick aswe mention everybody speaks about. It sounds like a count base marketing andall that, but only o few organization get it right. Okay and I think it itdepends on lots of things. Persibaly Abev, you know personalities can getinvolved ash of personality size of the organization, but also the needorship.I think the leadership can also bridge the gap, sometimes between SelsandMarketing Wich it many times you are Kapa or just simply not line with eachother. So it makes things very difficult, but in your in your opinion,why is it so important to athetrignmen between Ceran marketing and where arepeople failing in making it Wolk? Okay? So they wanted to start with the Wy, sothe why, as uses mentioned, so the most important reason? Why is because if youdon't have alinment between boos ors ire going to go off and do twodifferent things, so it's inefficient. Actually, it enneficient to benonalined between sales and markeing to have misalignment. So what will? What will typicallyhappen is- and this is a this- the thing which I see quite a bit acrossorganizations is that sales will say I'm just going to ignore. The leads arecoming in fom marketing cause ther shit anyway. You know you hear that t youhear that all tho those market needs a shit they're, not qualified they're,not co, COMP, I'm not that intrested Thas week anyway. Is that good, so therest must be bad exactly exactly so. I think there needs to be like a sosimple, like simple real set between marketing and says is like just acommunication allowne on that. So yes, I understand it from a salesperspective where they say: Hey the leades that I'm getting in are aren'tgood quality right. My typical response to this is as a marketer I said. Well,what's the percentage of leads that I giving to you out of all the leasesyou're getting from a marketing team loss, the percentage which yaure badand that typical, like what I've had in the past is I'll hear, like you know,like probably like thirty five, forty percent of the leaves that I got herjust crap, and I say that is fantastic news, because I expect sixty percent ofthe leads to you get that you should be getting should be cro. So, liketypically like it's like it's known across like Abenchmarks, you should befocused on as like. Sixty percent of stof you're, probably going to end opensales cus an stuff that you're going to be able to use my fad into a rightindustry in my final jury ISP, but it may not be like or ICP it may not beready to buy. There might be many reasons: Man Ont be the right person,whatever it might be, and sixty percent of those will never convert, whereasforty percent is sof that the Sales Stan can probably move forward with,but you're always going to remember as a salesperson or as a person. generaltyhuman beings will always remember the crap that you've gotten. Your alwaysremember hey. You know this. Never I got this in last week and that wasterrible, but I was U pro. I also got three other ones end up with Brinda,I'm not going to remember the belones. I got to remember the crappy becausethat' Ta Human Trace, that's just how it is. You know I think so, and whatwas the expectations in tem of qualification, because that's teserthing I mean sometimes we I need anow...

Pusur. There is a spectfrom you, okay,so I think I believe that you know, basedon on knowing you guys hat lid Fido, a know that I would expect YourselfsycoTealreado lis swift, smooth and shot Papo. I noone it or don't want it. Youare not pretty intresive, you can get proget pragan play Wi, don't cost tensof thousand mounts of mental ends of whatever castoffonoship and all that.So you, you must have a pretty strength for at pretty quick, pretty setcyclewith lots of velosity. Basically- and people may be, you know quolifying orquolifying out, but then Youe good deals of spectrum or people will sellITA million dollar deals and stuff like that. Well, obviously, it's probablyBUC heven more difficult to produce leads in the sense of the needs and theopportunity. So ow does that tolk in term ofqualification from your pospective. You think there is a slading scan. Do youthink the expectation of sens should change base on you know if theyaremacou manager, with twenty accounts, Wel Se Sose Perso, that he's managing apatch of five thousand accounts? I mean yeah for sure for ure. So, like I comefrom both where also prior to my time at lead, feter I'd been in that spaceof enterprise or MI O perod market to Enterprice sans. So when we first metOrany, I like I would be working Oya e working at a company called Exponia andan Exponia. We were focused on on working with, like the biggestretailors across across the GLOB and a been a marketing up exactly really tosales longsale cycles. So you could be anywhere nine to twelve month. Salescycles with the bigger retailers you'd be talking about. Eighteen, O. Twentyfour monsale cycles average deal size you're, probably like with the smallerlike, let's say, midmarketize retailers you're talking about a minimum of likea hundredk a year, and then the larger sige you're, looking up tosort of million dollar per year contracts so for the entiprise sizereterner so like there would be variations there like what I tried to do or what we tried todo during that time was just try to simplify it as much as possible. So,like you aske me, if there was some form of lead qualificaation that welike that that, like that change, is based on a POTENTARPRI and a likeyou're, always going to have some level of autamazents qualification, okay,which is going to help you, like sift through Immediat, warning signs thatquality is poor. Okay, so you can use various tools for that. You can do. Youcan use like data apandingtils such as built with or Eday te source, or anumber of different tols, which will basically tell you hey things like arepeople that have just done something from us are interacted with US alreadyusing a competitor technology to what we offer. So during my days back atExponia, what we would look at Hey. Are they using Amarsis ar they using salesforce marketing clude ar the using ADOBI marketing clade? Are they usingsomething? That's a competitor technology tools. If they were, thenthat will be a first sign to say this is interesting. Second signwuld bewould have to be don a human torture. THAT'S WHYRE! I ask the AR comes inyou're, going to have to have some level of human interaction on leadspromanstr. If you, if you try to automate everything, you will for surestart having like really leaky fornal and you and up not fit not being ableto follow UF on leads that Cam becous leads me fotrol gaps Basicaly, so youneed to probably have the way that we did. It was that we had like the SDRs reported into marketing,which first of ILE, if we're talking about marketing and SAS alignment thatworks really well. For me, it talk about huge Amoun, my time, managing anSDR team, because the SDR team are super difficult to manage and they'reall very youl, and they all don't want to be strs Waus with that, though, itallowed me to make sure that anything that my marketing guys were bringing inwas immediately getting locked up by the SDRs, because I could control thattire process make sense now the strs they were like, because when I firststarted they weren't getting that many...

...leaves and then my focus is truly LeGeneration. I sort of Pumpin Lev at the too many leads or hem to handle almostright, and then we started to have to bring in further qualification. But theone thing if you ask about qualification is if you're selding anenterprise sales, you need to make sure there's one level of automatedqualification. My opinion on lead scoring is it's fine, but don't depend on yourlead scoring model because typically Tlat' say, for example, let's take fthe,say, for example, somebody's going into an RF and they're doing the research,and you happen to be one of the smaller vendors in the market and they end tefall on to your website and they end up Blokeng of a couple of things down on acouple of eboks during the research, but they have't be doing Wuch, stil,open till them and they're rushing to get everything in place for an Orff.You May Miss Ave of people ten into lead, scoring things to say thatthey'll only get contacted when they get over a trashold. So many points,for example, right th K. things like that, so, like I wouldn't be beedscoring, is fine. I had a boss in the past, though ad a mar sister told me.If I ever mentioned eds goring to mgany fire me I didn't use, we didn't use MEDscoring. So I I think, like my advice of be, if you're settingto that to that upper sort of enterprise level sales, you need tohave a couple of thers. So Automated Layr in any human lair qualificationSDR is tand to be almosts, like hungry dogs and a D and like to be giving acouple of bonds in terms of good qualities, but they're still going tohave to sift through some level of you know unqualified stuff, but that'salways going to be part of the job, always Shu yea. That makes sense. Thatmakes sense so coming back to the allignement. So if there is noalligement between Celvsin Marketing Wha, would you say to blame leadership?Ony ESI, one hoe hundred percent at the time marketing it sal don't talk to oneother, because marketing and sales leaders don't talk to one oner. Oh, youmean so you said the vidoship Abot them, so you do a say, would be a cf or ceorwould be. I wil he actually do the CMO and the CRO technically, not I'm giging with each other they're, noton the same page. So it starts so my experience would be. It starts off witha with a mutual agreement. It starts taling to mution the gram betweenmarketing and sales at the very top. So what would happen? Is You sit in aboardroom and you'd? Look at your. You look at your targets for thecorresponding year and sales and marketing should say whoever is wantingthe sales work. Let's say the chief Revenue Officer and then whoever s Ur,ING, the marketing or the CMO would sit down together and say: okay, we'recreating the targets together for next year, and this is how much I'm going tohelp your guys populate Te Piy plane with, and that for me in the past hasbeen you know. During the Exponia Times it was like. I sat down with Houh, whowas the BPSASA LOS OF BP marketing and we would decide on a number and basedon you know. This is the number that we need to grow wey next year, which meanswe need to open up this amount pipeline marketin can help contribute towards apipeline whether or not it's this much or this much depends on whether or notI take on th the str team, then we came up with a very simple attribution model,very, very simple, to say whether or not we would say something has beencreated by marketing ourselvs when I' by an opportunity. So what we would dois every week we'd go and look at every single new business opportunity whichwas created. I understand the leadup to that opportunity actually being createdand then understand if it was actually sale self generated or if it wassomething to do with marketing or the SR group on from an Inbam perspectiveor an Outban perspect and then based on that we had some very top elevenpercentageus, for example, when I was use when I had the SDR team, I wouldpromise back to you so I'm gone to deliver. Seventy percent O your Pliyeplane yeah, because the SDR team should be booking meetings with those targetaccounts and we from a marketing perspective should also be doingourmarketing compaigns towards tose Acan. So we did an a camplace marketinginitiative as well. So what we would do is then we'd make sure that be totchpoints in each oothes accounts. Then...

...we'd have a discrition myself and youlike we're not talking about the tous and opportunities a week. We're talkingabout. Maybe forty look into each of those opportunities say: okay, thatcame in because ETE was an xxy said e book download, plus an str follow uppusst Arba trying to reach Oteot, O Camprex wher Xy d amount of time, andyou could say okay, what we're doing from the marketing a as tr Siid isworking. Therefore, this is populating into your sales. Tams pipelint yeahmakes sense. So speaking about Yes d, what you believe is the rule. In the inthe CESAN marketing alignment and also woul D, you think hey should report tocetezon marketing. So that's that's a good question. So in terms of howimportant the role is, I think they're all generally is like it's a reallyimportant role within any organization, because they are the next line of attack whenit comes to leage generation. So, like marketing will do the job and bring itin the leave, then the SDR is the one. That's really, you know it's up to themto really get it up to the next lavel in terms of getting into a meating book.WITHOOU ASTR teams you're going to have a lot of account executive sitting ontheir hands whet not enoug times booked in their Colendar to speak. It prospect.So I think from that perspective, the the Sr Tam is really important. Fromthe from the alignment perspective, I do str fiel that alignment wellthey're the ones that they're sort of like the middle man between themarketing team and the account executives. So if you have that,typically in the business that you just mentionedin Enterpro sales, you have an SDR team which would be populating the calendarsof of the of the account exactutives IMEA Fedur. We don't quite have that,like we just have one lar. Just you know, marketing stuff goes directly toSALESD and sales to direct out reach tbout's it because it's quickervelocity, as you mentioned, but in a longer sel cycles, you're going to haveto have SDRs there in the middle SDRs will take the stuff that the marketingteam are bringing in del workers created up to the next level, nextlevel, being a meeting books for example, and then that will then goacross over to a count: exectives, okay, so somethings not working there. In themiddle with the SDR team, the stuft that the marketing team are bringing inisn't going to necessarily work right or from the IES perspective, theaccount exacutoves perspective theyre. Looking at stuff, that's coming inmarketing, it's be Hilov to the SCR Tam. It's not converting itto meeting, sothe ies are thinking what the head of the marketing team doing: they're, nottha, they're, not populating my cu, my piceline, you know so like in terms ofin terms of how important the SDR rold is in Talim Apece, massively importantthereis A who they should report into it depends on. Who has you know thepatients and time to get them up to that level? Like? I think, if you lookin at from that perspective, what I tde way that I just magined but I'm alsobiased. I think it's a good idea to have the report into marketing, becausethe say if somebody is on top of the sales or chief ravenue officer, they'renot going to have a good overview of the STOFK, that's coming in from theIMBAN perspect, and they don't really care. They just want to see the stuffturn into Piepune and turn into revenue. That's what they should be concernedabout. That's why chief Ma Marketing officers there to make sure that Leganis work and demind gens work and all their outban stuff is work, ing, etc,etc. So you, like you've, got that piece o now hey. If I'm bringing itleade ore, they getting TA follower right. I've got an overview of that asa CML, if they're not getting followed up, but I see it right on top of that.You also want to control the message so typically like one of the one of thepainpoints that ive had in the past is, if you don't have good alignment between marketing andsales, what happens in sales? Tar create their own message, which doesn'tnecessarily fit in line withwhat marketers want to say about the companyright now. There's many reasons why that could be like why that's happening,but one of the reasons that I've seen in the past is because they think, okay,I don't agree with the marketing message and therefore I'm going to gooff my own tangent and therefore I'm going to set a different product towhat I think h. What the actual product is right. What happens, then? Is Youhave this like chain of events, furte ind, the line that you're may be notable to deliver what's being promised, and that causes issues across a numberof different teams from from customer...

...success to consultants to Etatr ETATR,whatever? What how many Lare you have in your company after the say happens?So it's like almost you know if an SDRs iscreating their own massaging and promises Om that the product onto Laborhas you know major side effects them bit further down the fornel yeah, andwhat about the rule of Foco CFOs in the in dielinemen between Selms andmarketing? You think they can blay. They can play your rold. You Yo, youknow from the recruitment to the engagement setting up the rules ofengagement. Wut was pose Ta Responsibilitin, making Shor. There isno break on a bridge between a between bose function. So, let's start with Thosee ow like I think, from a CS perspective yeah. They need to hire theright people to do it so like if you're looking for advice for cols that arehiring a CML, pacyfically you'll have achieve revenue officer there alreadybefore you, hireor, Camo or you'll. Have somebody that's managing therevenue side of things before you go to the chief marketing opposite diractionand a couper of things. I'd look out for would be. Does that person haveexperience in sales themselves? Do they understand the payin points from thesales ork yeah? You know what are their typical kpis things like it. So do theydo they understand what the KPIS in te sales organization are and how well Dithey align their efforts towards what the Sales Organization Ho're doing? SoI like it's as you would offer or you'd ask somebody in a salesinterview to give you a thrty sixty niht day plan. You should also last thesame over specific marketer. To do that. To do the exact same and also will goor for for signs like in the early stages. Is that person asking you aboutyour revenue targets for the year is: Are they are they interested inunderstanding how well marketing or delivering back towards Ose RevenueTargets Right now? One of those numbers looking like you know, what's the typiclike questions, I think it ask, is whatc your typical sales cycle. Are wetalking about sixty ninet days? What are we talking about here is: Is a sixmonth sale cycle like typical questions that you would be asked of within aninterview from a when you're hiring a sales drong. Typically, that would begood initial signs, thats. That marketer has been aligning themselvesto the sales organization before in the past as well as that, you should be asking them about theirrelationship with the current EUTIF sales, wherever they are so Howso. Onetypical question will be: How often do to speak with tye other had of sales,and what are you guys talking about as imagine, it doesn't need to be rocketscined, but it needs to be a pipeline review of every opend new businessopportunity from x amount of time and having like a pipeline concil, almostto understand where the pipe line is coming from, and how can they doubledown to get more of that type of Pie plane in right? So some things likethat. You could see that that if they, if they are having those conversationslike they could say, the reason why I say ask them Wat of the discussion onTNAT particular Carlis, because people can lie and say: Oh Yeah, I speak with,they had to say us all the time, but then okay. So what are you guys talkingabout where we're speaking about where opportunities are sourcing from andwhether those opportunities can be a tributed to marketing our sales andgetting feedback in the Sales Organtiz? What's Workang what isn't working ECyeah so like so from a CL's perspective, thehiring is the most important part, because typical thy cm will have toreport to the CEO, just Lokat for those signs in terms of already actually wellaligned to asselas work from like an ongoing perspective managementperspective. I think co should always make sure that, amongst the troops thateverything is going well right and a CEI will see within the revenue side ofthings. If things are moving in the right direction or not right like like,if things are growing, then you can be pretty sure that the CRL Wen the cmlwere working well together. If tings are not growing, then there's an issuesomewhere. You need to go investigate, but I don't think the CEOL needs to beholding hands between the CRL and the CMO. It needs to be no build withinthem to go and do it themselves. Yeah Fi see if I was important in the waythat CFL will be, will ewill and should...

...be involved in any discursions aroundrevenue growt and how much it costs to getther that revenue Brot, becausemarketing are going a going to go out and spend and you're going to havethree people involb my conversation you're going to have the chief revenueofficer who's, you know main target is obviously revenue growth. The CMO WHOSwhos main target should be aligned, tothat revenue, grouth and then both ofthose guys are going to be going and speaking with the CFS saying how muchmoney they need to get there antivity the marketer will need money forprograms e Gav, some head couns, the CRL will need money for headcount yeahand both of them are working together, say: Okay, Seyoro says: okay, we needto grow by lets, say five percent Premont. Therefore I need to hiredisamount o people. Then the CEEM says: Okay. In order for Sogo an a fiveperment sen per month, then what we need to is bring in Xmento leads inorder for to get those Xmento lead to me to make the investments here hereand here- here's Hon whach the investmentis going to be. Does thatmean that our coursome requisition cost are going to be okay, conversationsgoing back and forth between CRO and CMO? And then, when you get that plantogether, you tiprey Gongto the CFO and the school sing. Those plans togetherand he'll, say: Okay or she'll, say: okay, we have Burget to do that, needto go for another random investment, whatever it might be, was okay to see.If I would work in that type of capacity and a sort of advisorycapacity in terms of if it will work from a money perspective to hit thetargets, the CML, an the CR ar setting okay, makes sense. That makes perfectsense. Well, it's it's. It's a lot of insight of thank you, Vor much and yes,Oat Po for the audience to take away today. If anywant, if anyones storywants to get in touch with you as to any for to question ontos ONA bit moreBo, lipider or bog just want to have a chat. Becaus Yo was the best way toconnect. I Te. So that's why to get leave fears leap, Eter com, you cound,sign up for Free Tri. We've got two week free trial there. All you need todo is is add a small snip, O co o to the head or your size, and then you'regood to go your track and leads hat are com in to yourselve yeah me personally.If you want to reach out to me directly, the best bace O get mes on linked in.So I find me Andy Culligan, so that's Andy wit, Awhi and then cull Igan andyeah just feel free to reach os an I be having to have a conversation, I'm veryaff in O Makdin. So so that's great. Thank you, Vor a much for te time today.What it was an absolute pleasure for Yonder, Sho and Axmad operatics hasredefined the meaning of revenue generation for technology companiesworldwide, while the traditional concepts of building and managinginsize sales teams in house has existed for many years, companies arestruggling with the lack of focus, agility and scale required in today'sfast and complex world of enterprise technology sales. Seeo operatics canhelp your company accelerate pipeline at operatics. Dot Net you've beenlistening to be to B Revenue Acceleration to ensure that you nevermiss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player, thankyou so much for listening until next time.

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