B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 1 year ago

91: How to Get Outbound Sales Cadences Right w/ Michael Hanson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Pre-pandemic, the average connect rate for a cold call is about 4%.

That has actually increased by about 1% — which doesn’t sound like much, but which has huge implications for your outbound sales cadences and how to get them right.

In this episode, I interview Michael Hanson, Founder and Sales Consultant at Growth Genie, about mastering outbound sales cadences.

We talked about how to be targeted & personalized, but at scale, shifts in outbound marketing, and why you need 30 touches.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

You are listening to B to B RevenueAcceleration, a podcast, dedicated ealink software executives stay on thecutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's gite him in theshell hi welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Onia Witta andam here today with Micel Enson, fonder and Selles Consultan that Growth Jenny.How are you doing today? Macel o Gods, thanks for invites me on the show, I'mgoing to say this again, but I'm going to call you rain Bas. I hear a lot ofpeople, no offen Tey CAIS, one of the mostinnews name for me, so that's kind of cool. I respond to many names, so ourdiscussion today will be surrounding outdon Peli cadences. We know that youare anexpet when it comes to that topic, but before we go into the conversation,could you just tell us a little bit more about yourself as well as yourcompany growth, Jenny, yeah sure so were sals consultancy, we're quite anew company about a year old and we essentially howp be to be SA, as teamshave better conversations, we do that through setting up npeacable, scadebutoutan processes such as playbooks, cadences, etc. Before I sat out thecompany I acsually, used to be in in your space in the outsource sets the ArSpace Yeah and Hel a company grow from five people in the CO's apartment overtwo hundred 'm, not going to mention their name as I don't want to mentgion.You competitorsm on your podcast, a outof respect, but learne a lot aboutdifferent techniques. What works, what doesn'td and one of the things I sawthat you may have seen as well as actually when companies outsource ofchallenge, so they don't have good flavortes, cadences messaging in place.Often ther fail the companies that outsource the best it's when they havevery good pricisses in place and then like an outsource team, can can sit ontop of that and as part of the reason that makes ou greace, you need to helpthat company's bell an build that Messageing Froutman Aso it's aboutbuilding up playbooks. So do you actually do the whole playbooks likegetting information from the market and everything? What would your clientscome from originally? Would they have absolutely nothing or with theavesomething ogon back but PUSA bof...

...clients on Bod Yeah? We kind of do both.Typically, some companies have tried to do out ban, but they pretty much failed.So they' made you fired their first, you know two bdrs and they haven't gotthe messaging right. Often, what happens as well is when BDS restearsdon't have managers, they don't succeed because a lot of companies are like heywe're going to hire us the ours and they can do their job, but often s trslike green or graduate roles. So when that happens, they need that supportand that's kind of where we can come in. We can almost act as a virtual bediormanager and then we've got other companies that are a bigger. Maybethey've got a team of like ten twentsdrs and mean more helping themoptimize, their cadences ind, their playbooks or perhaps they've got a newproduct launching that we can help them build that messaging. For so those arekind of typically tha. The two different scopes makes but expensive.So thanks for that, my all so you've developed a cirty touch of NIS channelaltbound cell caddens that combines Lintin Altbun cudding SMS. What's up anemail, I'm very interested to Undorson a little bit more about the wor terpeliaments, I'm sure you're gon ta get toit in a minute, but could you pleaseshave some more details of thes sequence with audience and maybe show afew stats that you've seen walking with it yeah? Definitely so it's a funnytiming AF this question because I'm actually going to do a weabin or onThuresday this week with deed feeder and Itwa Se Rar. I think we first cameinto contact with each other on Alead Feedo Webani. It's going to be anoutboun canes tfo. Two Thousand and twenty one, but it's going to be quitesimilar to the one we already have in place and we released it in January. Soit's pretty pandemic, so a lots changed since then, but there's a few thingsthat ae staying the same so like the thirty touches themselves, which I cantalk through so typically we're looking about ten to fifteen phone calls, sevento eight emails and seventy eight linkin messages and again this seemslike a lot, and I think this is why it was our most viral bit of content,because people are like thirty touches. That's insane, you can't Arass peoplebut, as you said like, there are statistics behind this. So when itcomes to cooling, for example, typically, a connect rate according toconnectand sell, which is a pawadialer...

...who've, analyzed millions of phonecalls. Typical connect rat, I think, is actually about four percent, and sowhat that means is essentially could be like on and twenty calls are going tobe answered. It can go higher a lollerse if you're calling sales peoplebecause they're expecting business to come in that can be ten percent or ifit's kind of like sometimes it personas, even marketing, can be be low aboutthree percent so essentially got to do a lot of calls just to have oneconversation, but the phone can still be a very powerful tool, as you'll know,operatics, and I think, when people think of thirty touches, often they'rethinking of you're having thirty conversations, but that's not it. Itcan take thirty touches essentially to have one conversation and then therules in terms of like linkeon, an email. Typically, I say don't ask for ameeting on the first email, firstning Tiv message just ask relevant questionsor share a bit of content, Ityo things very relevant to them like give away apiece of content like if you follow Droft Brown on Linkton. He talks aboutdeposits, esentially doing that deposit and then warm them up as you go along.The phone is different because on the phone you can actually have aninteractive conversation. You can identify the pains and then you canpicture meeting, but it's more difficult an you know, so I don'trecommend actually asking for a meeting on the first Emai or linking messageand then there's a few. As I said, we're about to release Om new cavents,Wi, H, we'd, lead feeder and videor. There's a few things. Av Changed sinceJanuary with our one, which is one voice notes we use now on linked en sovoice notes, are really good. What I like about them is it's kind of a wayyou can scale personaization, because I find videos can take quite a long time.You're thinking about how you look, what do you share, whereas a voice?Note, you literally just touch a button on your phone and like send a voicenote, you can quickly scan the linkd in profile and then another thing we'reusing as well at the star is Linkin Poles. So one of the hardest things asan SDR is like actually knowing what the pains are of your bias. You kind ofhave to make an assumption versus if you're like in a or a closer you Gettan,Inboundy they've told you what your pains are. You can do discoveries whenyou're INSCAR. You don't do that you're going completely cold, so hat's a newthing, we're doing. We actually sound...

...like a survey on the first message inLinkeon like by to prospect you rave as a co WIR. The sals hat would love yourfeedback on this. This quick pole related to Outbon. So I was chattingthis all you wot to do is Prassa button and en I know that's a challenge foryou and then I can personalize the message based on that. So really thecadences stay the same, but there's a couple of new things wer using, whichis surveys and Linkdon voicenots, very good that ones verly good and what's upI mean is I know that we have a fair few clients in Istrael, for example,and when we are prospecting on the alphathoparatics the way I'm engagingwith my Clentsnis forlis very much what abased seems to love what Servi. Soit's a way of communication. It is quite its juse common leave, you willand people are quite relax about you contacting them directly and Adine onwhats. I feel that is maybe less some fed we celess in western Europe andNorth America d o You have any comments on that yeah. Definitely I think yeah,just the use of what's HAP in North America is people tend to use. Imessage there's more SMS, so I recommend Yot North America to use SS.What's happened still big in Europe. As you said, it's not used that much forbusiness purposes, yeah hit's, actually, why I think it can be very powerfulbecause of GP you have to be careful, so SMS can be tricky in certaincountries within Europe, like especially Germany, but actually reallyacross Europe. So if someone hasn't opted in, it is quite difficult, but ifyou've got leads like webinare leads or ebok leads, or people that have come toyour website and giving you their phone number you've actually got professionto send them an SMS or send them a what's at. I knowea people. Don'tactually do that. So I really recommend that and and again the messages it'slike if you're texting a friend, the messages have to be Super Short Bu.It's quite a good way to nurtor someone, something I can even do is like yousand a very personized email and then you can send them an SMS, or what'sthat, like any thoughts on my email, Jeffright is mixing that, like Ibsideecatilize, he email with just like a quick follower on on r mssor. What'sthat yeah? I think that makes sense. I actually use it for forowing up onconversation that may get a little bit difficult to be done by email. So whenI kin of see that a prospectil clientis...

...taking two three days to respond to anemail, I try new ways and sometimes is a Phune court. Ou o Wi'th that clientswiae, like Shiper, responsive to Fon, calls particularly sells people dummbetter on phone calls. In my opinion, without making generalities, thenemails, then what' UPPORSO WOK, we with e Fuso I've, seen that in maybe thelarger companies where people may have now. If you take an no recall, IBMgooglre and all that, I think people have that day, ratively regimentedquite a lot of meetings. A lot of internal remain slack lots of ozobitsand Peceso. Basically, the computer is maybe getting a little bit of a wend.Thet people still check the ffun without any starts again, in my opinion,ar found that in in large organization. Well, maybe the day is more regimentedand there is lots of it. May Lots of at mean what Sup tors worked well for me,but more when I've already got that relationshe midn't play. If he will twhen I'm when they already know me, tey know who am and then I will let them onTowardsu as a new channel to accerate things for me, but that makes sense. So,thanks for that Mycolr I will want to go back to the data in a minute becauseI dont at tesend Te Tobic of today. But before then, I want to speak aboutautomation, vases personalization, okay, BA, because I know that you know youand I is- are part of the seme groups, an you see, emails coming through andlinking grops, and all that and lots of people speak about automation. You knowit seems to me that automation is not for absolutely everyone. It seems thattostanization may be more relevant when you are very account based driven, verytop AV large deal, complex selicycles, but what I'd like to get I' like to getyour thoughts on that I'd like to Anoson? You should believe Al so thatyou can be targeted and torsonalized, but that scale yeah. Definitely- and Ithink one of the issues with this debate is that people wl take toextremes right. If you follow, you know these so clled sales influences onlinkon and you go on your feed. Your one extreme, which is saying you know,sales is a numbers, game, automate everything, and then you got anotherextreme, which is don't automate anything you have to personalizeeverything and I sit somewhere in the...

...middlew. I think when it comes toautomation, you need to segregate your list, because I think one of theproblems people have is theyre like okay. I've got a list of three tousandpeople that I can contact for this campaign. If you send all threethousand people the same message, you're going to fail, you got to splitinto kind of the obvious things which are the job titles right. I sell toprobably same as you marketing leaders, seras leaders and then cos are smallcompanies, I'm going to have different messaging for all those differentpisoners and an industries right target industries where you've already got paystudies and then mention that in your sequence and then the other thing whichyou know, I'm sure to you is basic ray. But a LOTF companies aren't doing istriggers right. So so you're a software and you integrate into another software,build a list of companies that use that there semany tools that you can do that.Companies that have raised around companies are recently launched, TAproduct. So if you're building these trigger events into your messaging,essentially it looks like the emails are actually personalized but in factthey're autonated. So the key is when you're building messaging like have alist but segregate your list into triggers job, titles and industries andthen you're going to be more successful and then, of course, I believe in likehyperpersonalization for your best leads essentially, so I also think havealmost like a tewan account list where, like this company's a really good fitfor us and most of its personaliys right, you go and Linkin profile you ontheir company website and you look for things that you can talk about, so Iwessentially believe in a mixture, but where automation goes wrong is whenpeople being a spray and pray approach to one led yeah, you need to segregateyour list and then build messaging around different triggers job tites andindustries yeah. Yet that makes perfect sense. So let's speak about data very,very, very wai to pick so what you do is is fantastic. You know you the C. Itis that the cells catdens the message, the intelligence that you will put in-that is kind of the ferary of the campaign. Okay, and then you need twothings around. You need the data and the VIDEA. Okay, a to data wild, be thepatrol that you put in the ferury and...

...the Bida is the Gaye Wi drive theferrary. Okay, if Milton was a drive a Ferari and I was to drive a Terari. Heprobably would finish the race before me because he's probably better drivingaconof me so, and I think I think i's the same with bidl so ol does that TIsystem walk with what you do? Do you have to drive specific diciplinerequirement from data of thetive and also specific dicipinin requirementfrom a BIDIAP TOSPEC ifpatically fo Tomision is n't available, just to makesure they actually follow the rules, and you know Sos I'd like Toson. Nowyou work with that TICA system, because this is some thiar tht. You may not beable to influence ATCROSS Jeny, but I'd Leke toonoon. What o the kind of Enshakin the process that you are having on both side from a Deta pespective andfrom a VIDEA perspective, to make sure that you know your ferary is actuallymoving from the driveway and is being driven propony yeah. No, I love yourMataphor. An analogy of you know the Carla Foraran and the fuel andcompletely aligntat the data such an important part and actuallyhistorically, where I've seen candagnes fail in my last role and he'm with myclients is from data, because data is the first thing babe you get that onethen, however, Good Tho BDR is they're not going to be successful and in termsof we do have a big influence in our clients. So before this ours processand then in the first week of onboarding, we go into lot of detailabout the Kay. Where are you getting your leans right if you're doing coldout rand, rather than just having loae in band leads? Where are you gettingyour leads? I want to try and be bend in neutrual her, so I'm not going tomention Pattitua vendancs, but yeah. Essentially, you need a data sourceright, there's Somany data sources out there, so you need to establish a gainwhich is the best data source for our ideal, casine Profil, and then alsoit's like the text thake. What solls engagement platform you're going to useto reach these people? So we'll go into a lot of detail on that and I think onone of the things that I've seen that companies don't do is they get a Dattaplatform, but then they get their bdrs to spend all the time building listsand what you want your BDS to do is be doing outreach right. You wanted to bea hundred percent focused on actually...

...sending Linton Messeger, sendingpersonlizen a was making phone calls and not building list or something Ialways recommend our clients is either have like in terns or like a juniorsous person, that's building list for the BDS or outsource that as well rightor outsource your dated to someone else, because for me that's the mostfrustrating thing. When I hear bdas, I spent fifty sixty percent of my timeactually researchand building list. You want them to be spending their timeactually reaching out to people to that's the way, samthing that Imentione, sir to clients and something that Hiy need to think about. YeahOlsome, I'm a big believer in prospecting myself and I think that'skind of the way between that tind. How would the driver make the most of thepatroitis available in the caw? Basically, how do you drive efficiently,but I do believe that without mentioning any name but o some of thelargers that are base in the US are being absolutely amilled and sorry forthe Onguagr, but I think they're just being pestoled thise people. If yourname is one of the Slouge Databass, we ow the rithree man names and some ofthem, maybe together now. Actually, if Yodem is in there, I mean your fun mustbe ringing thousands of times a day because you've got dialogs going at you.You've got people going at you and then your Emal inbox must be absolutelyoverwhelmed as well with marketing automation, people, blasting, stuff,etc, etc. So we have actually seen as a company with in less resurts from TAT'sa shame, because you know sometimes you know we always Frai to Otifywhy. Yourcompanis performing well has Isaote and the compan that are performing the best.Obviously, when we do your thought right, which is getting the cadensright and getting the missag right and he all start with, he sells playbookand then the other part is when we actually can of almost manually walk onthe data. So, as you said, you know get someone that build te data from theBida, but not just stop ind saying: Oh, you know what I'm going to do a nexttrack from DEDATA BAS and the areas your list, someone that actually go andChecke verify, make sure that the contact ou the right contact, because Ido agree with you and as the reason why you on the podcast today about thecertite, chees and really deoni channel,...

...is so important. But when, when youthink about it, what you want to do you once your bisiar not only to not go andget to that a themselve, but also you don't want them to spend. I don't knowcouple of hours, three hours going through serchty touches or morepotentially, because they've got a limited number of accounts, tyeah itsvery agame, focusing on the wrong people, because of course they will bebarking at the wrong tree. So that's that's kind of the Dialema that we seesometimes and w some thingatis actually quit case by case driven when hit comesto serving it. But that's one of the major dilema were clients. I kind ofScratchin, the back of Tdan and SA of Undeston. I've got that big data basedto spend a thousands of dollars on every year. I've got that beautifulselisplaybook that we build ourselves or we used. You know operatics mayavelton doing bits and thisis e. We don't really do it, but we kind of Helv withthe feedback wer getting from the prospect, but ea it's about how you getall thats singing and dancing sometime, Tho dylamma as well as interesting, butmaybe maybe fun was a conversation. My Call I've got one less question for youand it's about the bundemic. I'm sorry we all fed up with cabit nineteen. Butsince the start of the bandemic, have you seen a shift or change to out Bumbprospecting? Have you seen the way people are going about it to bedifferent? I know that you'St pinking about Your Thousanda, twenty one YuKaden, so I'm sure you've got some finding, but I'd like to discuss yourmain findings. Andyo Sho, that was Augent, pice yeah sure so I'll go backto a stat live ention earlier, so the the average connect rate for a coldcaus, a about four percent an this was again the only vender ive mentionedconnecting so just because they have this data, so you can look it ut acrossmillions of calls. They said the average connects rate for a cold pall.So, essentially, you receive a number on your phone. You don't know who it isits four percent, so its like less than Onein twenty, that's grone up actuallyby one percent to five percent right. That seems, like a very small number.Are the connect rates gone ut by one percent if you're doing fifty calls aday or a hundred calls a day, even you're, going to get either one or twomore conversations every day or two...

...days with that stat? And that meansessentially say you get four more conversations week that sixty moreconversations amon a few of those turning to deals and you're sellinginto enterprise that could be like millions, Multiandif you've got lots ofbdrs. That's you know potentially multi millions of revenue cost. So the pointI'm trying to make is that actually cooling has become even more importantthis year and I think it's funny there's always these theseconversations like this cold calling dead, etc. I think calling this yearit's become not easier, but the. As I said, the connect rate has gone up andI think for me I've always said the phone is still the number one channelto prospect, because you can have an interactive conversation. If I emailyou with a question, you don't really have to answer. If I lintinue with thequestion you answer answer where, if I'm on the phone, ninety percent athetime you're going to answer because the only other thing you can do is hang up,which you know most people have the respect o to not do that yeah. I thinkso. I think the phone has become even more important this year and then Ithink, with the other channels. Essentially, I feel like it's becomemore difficult, but it's also becomer interesting. So I think, like you said,if you're like a sea level person at Microsoft or these big companies,you're literally going to get two hundred prospectshairs a day, but yourI still preach email but, like I was saying early, your messaging needs tobe really good. So if you automate you gat to have a highly segregated list orif your persnalizing you've got to really look into their linkin profiletheir company in order to stand out because there's just so much noise onemail now, like you know, I found Er of a small company and I still get like ahundred emails a day. So I'm sure, like big companies, are getting thousands,so email can still work, but you've got to have really really good messaging inorder for it to work. So this a very the two findings that I've seen thisyear, yeah that's very useful and then kind of seen the same so be I'm glad weare on the same wevelence Ye. That's wonderful! Well, look myk call, as Isaid, probably a lot of foot forsorts and thanks for sharing your insighttoday, I'd like to probably have anoth orsassion with you, because I've got athousand more question, but...

...unfortunately we get into the time anlocation. We don't want to keep our session too long, because we wantpeople to be engaged of a shorter, pier of time, veses getting Ninto a longconversation. So we probably will probably do anothersation, but ifanyone wants to connect with, you may call discuss some of the ad that youpresented today or, more importantly, would like to engage with cross Jennyto set up their onpersonalize Sartitach of Nid channel out BOUNC and scadands.No, what would be the best way to get told of you, Maecol yeah, of course, sovery active O on Linten, so you search Michael Hanson growt Junor on Lintonconnect with me, ther ind, one of those people I tend to connect w th witheveryone, so feel free to connect with me and Yeh feel free to send me anemail as well. So it's M Hanson at growth, UNCO NOTCOM. Everyone makesthat mistake. I couldn't Ge Bet Jencom, unfortunately, but yeah, email orLinkin are probably the two best ways. THAT'S FOR NO FUL! Well sanks! Again!For Your Time Today, my codit was an APSOLUTE pleasure toon. The showlikewise ray and theallet Ford to continue in the conversation you've been listening to be to berevenue acceleration to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening untilnext time.

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