B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 1 year ago

91: How to Get Outbound Sales Cadences Right w/ Michael Hanson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Pre-pandemic, the average connect rate for a cold call is about 4%.

That has actually increased by about 1% — which doesn’t sound like much, but which has huge implications for your outbound sales cadences and how to get them right.

In this episode, I interview Michael Hanson, Founder and Sales Consultant at Growth Genie, about mastering outbound sales cadences.

We talked about how to be targeted & personalized, but at scale, shifts in outbound marketing, and why you need 30 touches.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or on our website.

You were listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's give them the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is onion with tier and I'm here today with make on Hanson, thunder and cells. Consultant that growth, Jenny, how are you doing to the make all well? Good, thanks for invites me on the show. I'm going to say this again, but I'm going to call you right as I hear a lot of people no fund stickers. One of the most in US name for me, so that's kind of cool. I respond to many names. So I'll discussion today will be surrounding outdown spells, cadencies, and we know that you are an expert when it comes to that. To pick. But before we go into the conversation, could you just tell us a little bit more about yourself, as well as your company growth? Jenny? Yeah, sure, so we're sales consultancy. We're quite a new company, about a year old, and we essentially how BB sours teams have better conversations. We do that through setting up repeatable scale, but outlun processes such as play works, Caden says, etc. Before I set out the company, I actually used to be in your space, in the outsource as the our space. Yeah, how's a company grow from five people in the CEO's apartment over two hundred, and not going to mention their name, as I want to mention from patent as and what some one your podcast our respite. But learned a lot about different techniques, what works, what doesn't, and one of the things I saw that you may have seen as well as actually when companies outsource of challenge, so they don't have good flavor its, cadences, messaging in place, often they fail. The companies that outsource the best, it's when they have very good processes in place and then, like an outsource team can sit on top of that and as part of the reason that may sound great, you need to help that companies build, build that messaging grout one. So it's about building up playbooks. So do you actually do the whole play books, like getting information from the market and everything? What would your clients come from? Originally with they have absolutely nothing, or with the have something. But I'll do you on bug bus bus, they buff...

...clients on board. Yeah, we kind of do both. Typically, some companies have tried to do outbound but they pretty much failed. So they maybe fired their first you know to bed ours and they haven't got the messaging right. Often what happens as well as when bedos rest ours don't have managers, they don't succeed, because a lot of companies are like hey, we're going to hire s the ours and they can do their job, but often as the oars are like green or graduate roles. So when that happens they need that support and that's kind of where we can come in. We can almost act as a virtual video manager. And then we've got other companies that are bigger and maybe they've got a team of like ten, twenty SD ours and we're more helping them optimize their cadences and their playbooks. Or perhaps they've got a new product launching that we can help them build that messaging for. So those are kind of typically for the two different scopes. Makes Perfect expense. So thanks for that. May Call. So you've developed a certain touch on each channel. Outbound, Sol skeddings, that combines linkedin out buncling SMS. What's up? Any mail. I'm very interested to unders on a little bit more about the words up elements. I'm sure you're going to get to eat in a minute, but could you please show some more details of the sequence with our audients and maybe show a few stats that you've seen working with it? Yeah, definitely. So it's a funny timing a DIS question because I'm actually going to do a Webinar on Thursday this week. We lead feeder and the reously, where I think we first came into contacts with each other. On a lead feed Webinar. It's going to be an outbound tenance for two thousand and twenty one, but it's going to be quite similar to the one we already have in place. So we released it in January. So it's pretty pandemic. So a lots changed since then, but there's a few things that are staying the same. So like the thirty touches themselves, which I can talk through. So typically we're looking about ten to fifteen phone calls, seven to eight emails and seven eight linkedin messages. And again this seems like a lot and I think this is why it was our most viral bit of content, because people are like thirty touches. That's in saying you can't Harrask people. But, as you said, like there are statistics behind this. So when it comes to cooling, for example, typically a connect rate, according to connecting cell, which is a power dialer, who've analyzed millions of...

...phone calls, typical connects rate, I think, is actually about four percent, and so what that means is essentially could be like one in twenty calls are going to be answered. It can go higher or lower. SEF you're calling sales people because they're expecting business to come in, that can be ten percent, or if it's kind of like sometimes it personas even marketing can be the law, about three percent. So essentially you've got to do a lot of calls just to have one conversation. But the phone can still be a very powerful tool, as you'll know, operatics, and I think when people think of thirty touches, often they're thinking of you're having thirty conversations, but that's not it. It can take thirty touches essentially to have one conversation. And then the rules in terms of like linkedin and email. Typically I say don't ask for a meeting on the first email. First Linkedin message, just ask relevant questions or share a bit of content that things very relevant to them, like give away a piece of content, like if you follow Josh Brown on Linkedin, he talks about deposits. Essentially doing that deposit and then warm the mark as you go along. The phone is different because on the phone you can actually have an interactive conversation, you can identify the pains and then you can picture meeting. It's more difficult and email. So I don't recommend actually asking for a meeting on the first email or linkedin message. And then there's a few as I said, we're about to release a new cadence with lead feeder and videyard. There's a few things of have changed since January with our one, which is one voice notes. We use now on Linkedin. So voice notes are really good. What I like about them is it's kind of a way you can scale personalization, because I find videos can take quite a long time. You're thinking about how you look, what you share. There as a voice note, you literally just touched a button on your phone and like send a voice note. You can quickly scan their linked in profile. And then another thing we're using as well at the start is linkedin Poles. So one of the hardest things as an SDR is like actually knowing what the pains are of your buyers. You kind of have to make an assumption. Versus if you're like an a or a closer, you get an in boundary. They've told you what your pains are. You can do discoveries, but when you're an Sdi you don't do that. You're going completely cold. So that's a new thing we're doing. We actually sound like a survey on...

...the first message and Linkedin like bars a prospect, you ray as a CEO with the sales out would love your feedback on this. This quick pole related to outbound sales challenges. Or you've got to do as press a button, and I know that's a challenge for you, and then I can personalize the message based on that. So really the cadence is stayed the same, but there's a couple of new things were using, which are surveys and linkedin voice notes. Pretty good. That sounds really good. And what's up? I mean he's that I know that we have a fair few clients nice trail, for example, and when we are prospecting on the Alpha for poetics the way I'm engaging with make clients. Nis frilli is very much what'sai based. Seems to love Word Service. So it's a wall of communication. It's quite it's just come and leave you wheel and people are quits relax about to contacting them directly and adding you on what's up. I feel it he is maybe less so feared. We see less in western Europe and North America. Do you have any comments on that? Yeah, definitely, I think. Yeah, just the use of what's up in North America is people tend to use eye message as more SMS. So I recommend a North America to use SMS. WHATSAPP is still being in Europe. As you said, it's not use that much for business purposes. Yeah, that's actually why I think it can be very powerful. Because of GDPI, you have to be careful. So SMS can be tricky in certain countries within Europe, like especially Germany, but actually really across Europe. So if someone hasn't opted in, it's quite difficult. If you got leads like Webin our leads or Ebert leads or people that have come to your website and giving you their phone number, you've actually got professions to send them an SMS or send them a what'Sapp, and a lot of people don't actually do that. So I really recommend that. And an again the messages. It's like if you're texting a friend. The messages have to be super short. It's quite a good way to nurture someone. Something I can even do is, like you send a very personalized email and then you can send them an SMS or what's that like? Any thoughts on my email? Jeff Right, it's mixing that like absolutely much nice email with just like a quick follow up on usms or what's up? Yeah, I think that makes sense. I actually use it for following up on conversation at me get a little bit difficult to be done by email. So when I can of...

...see that a prospect or client is is taking two, three days to respond to an email, I try new ways and sometimes it's a phone call. You know, we've got clients who are like Super Responsive to fund calls, particularly sells people dumb much, but on phone calls, in my opinion, without making generalities, then emails and then what's upports. So walkwere with a few. So I've seen that in that maybe the larger companies where people may have know. If you they cannot recall IBM Google and all that. I think people have died ay relatively regimented. Quite a lot of meetings, a lot of internally male slack, lots of us a bits and pieces. So basically the computer is maybe getting a little bit of a whelmed, but people still check their fun without any stats. Again, in my opinion, I found that in large organization where maybe the day is more regimented and there is lots of it Maale, lots of Admin. What's up has worked well for me, but more when I've already got that relationship in place, if you will, but when I'm when they already no mean they know who I am, and then I will lead them on to what's up as a new channel to accelerate things for me. But that makes sense. So thanks for that my call. I will want to go back to the data in a minute because I thought that decided the topic of today, but before then I want to speak about automation versus personalization. Okay, because I know that you know, you and I is are part of the same groups. You see e mails coming through and linkedin groups and all that, and lots of people speak about automation. You know, it seems to me that automation is not for absolutely everyone. It seems that personalization maybe more relevant when you are very account based driven, very top heavy, large deal complex cell cycles. But what I'd like to get at like to get your thoughts on that. I'd like to understand issue. Believe also that you can be targeted and personalized, but that scale. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the issues with this, Surbay, is that people who take two extremes right. If you follow, you know, recycled suns influences on Linkedin and you go on your face your one extreme, which is saying, you know, silence as a numbers game, ultimate everything, and then you got another extreme, which is don't automate anything, you have to personalize everything. And I sit somewhere in the...

...middle. I think when it comes to automation, you need to segregate your list because I think one of the problems people have is they're like a kain of I've got a list of Threezero people that I can contact for this campaign. If you send all threezero people the same message, you're going to fail. So you've got to split into kind of the obvious things. which are the job titles? Right, I sell to probably same as you, marketing leaders, sales leaders and the CEO's are small companies. I'm going to have different messaging for all those different personas. And then industries, right, target industries where you've already got case studies and then mentioned that in your sequence. And then the other thing, which you know, I'm sure to you, is basic ray, but a lot of companies aren't doing, is triggers. Right. So say you're a software and you integrate into another software. Build a list of companies that use that. There's so many tools that you can do that. Companies that are raised around companies are recently launched the product. So if you're building these trigger events into your messaging, essentially it looks like the emails are actually personalized. In fact they're automated. So the key is, when you're building messaging like have a list. It's segregate your lists into triggers, job titles and industries, and then you're going to be more successful. And then, of course, I believe in like hyper personalization for your best leads, essentially. So I also think have almost like a tear one account list where, like this, companies are really good fit for us, and most of its personalized. Right, you go and linked in profile, you are on a company website and you look for things that you can talk about. So I will essentially believe in a mixture. But where automation goes wrong is when people doing a spraying prayer approach to one lest. Yeah, you need to segregate your less and then build messaging around different triggers, job titles and industress. Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. So let's speak about data. Very, very, very weight to pick two. So what you do is is fantastic. You know, you do the word see, it is that the cells, caudents, the message, the intelligence that you will put in. That is kind of the Ferrari of the campaign. Okay, and then you need two things around. You need the data and the VIDEA. Okay, the data would be the patrol that you put in...

...the Ferrari and the VIDEA is the gate. We drives a Ferrari. Okay, if I Milton was to drive a Ferrari and I was to drive a Ferrari, he probably would finish the race before me because he's probably better driving academy. So and I think I think it's the same with BDL. So all those that take a system work with what you do. Do you have to drive specific discipline requirement from the data perspective and also specific discipline requirement from a bidia perspective, particularly for automosion? Is that available, just to make sure that they actually follow the rules and you know so? So I'd like to know on how you work with at ECO system, because this is a fair you may not be able to influence at Gross Jenny, but I'd like to understand what are the kind of any check in the process that you are having on both sides, from a data perspective and from a BIDEA perspective, to make sure that you know your Ferrari is actually moving from the driveway and is being driven properly. Yeah, but I love your metaphor and analogy of, you know, the car de Ferrari and the fuel and completely align that. The data such an important part and actually historically where I've seen campaigns fail in my last role and then with my clients is from data, because data is the first thing that if you get that one, then however good the be Dr is, they're not going to be successful. And in terms of we do have a big influence in our clients. So before the sales process and then in the first week of on boarding, we going to a lot of detail about the Cape. Where you getting your leads right, if you're doing cold outbound rather than just having load of inbound leads, where you getting your leads? I'm going to try and be vend the neutral here, so I'm not going to mention particular vendors. But yeah, essentially you need a data source right. There's so many data sources out there, so you need to establish a gay which is the best data source for our ideal customer profile. And then also it's like the text that what sales engagement platform you're going to use to reach these people. So we'll go into a lot of detail on that. And I think one of the things that I've seen that companies don't do is they get a data platform, but then they get their bedrs to spend all the time building lists, and what you want your bedrs to do is be doing outreach right. You want them to be a hundred percent focused on actually sending linkedin messages, sending personalize emails, making phone calls and...

...not building lists or suddenly I always recommend our clients is either have like interns or like a junior sales person that's building. This will be videos, or outsource that as well, right, or outsource you're dated someone else, because for me that's the most frustrating thing when I hear videos. I spend fifty sixty percent of my time actually research and building less. You want them to be spending their time actually reaching out to people. That's the way. Something I mentioned to clients and something that I need to think about. Yeah, also, I'm a big believer in prospecting myself and I think that's kind of the way between that time. I would the driver make the most of the picture it is available in the cal basically, how do you drive efficiently? But I do believe that, without mentioning any name, but some of the larger that are base in the US are being absolutely ameled. So for the onguage, yeah, but I think they're just being pested those people. If your name is one of those large database, we know there extreme main names and some of them maybe to get on now. Actually, if your name is in there, I mean your fun must be ringing thousands of times a day because you've got dialers going at you, you've got people going at you and then your email inbox must be absolutely overwhelmed as well with marketing automation, people blasting stuff, etc. Etc. So we have actually seen as a company, we seen less results from and that's a shame because you know, sometimes you know, we always try to identify why your company is performing well versus another and the compaign that are performing the best. Obviously when we do your thoughts right, which is getting the cadens right and getting the message right, and he all start out with the sales playbook. And then the other part is when we actually kind of almost manually walk on the data. So, as you said, you know, get someone that build the data from the video, but not just stop and saying, how, you know what I'm going to do, an extract from the database and here is your list. Someone that actually go and check, verify, make sure that the contact out the right contact, because I do agree with you, and as a reason why you own the podcast today, about the searchy touches and really the...

...only channel is so important. But then, when you think about it, what you want to do, your wants your video are not only to not go and get the data themselves, but also you don't want them to spend, I don't know, a couple of hours, three hours, going through search he touches or more potentially, because they've got a limited number of accounts. Yeah, it's very ABM focusing on the wrong people because of course they will be backing at the wrong tree. So that's that's kind of the the dilemma that we see sometimes and something that is actually quite case by case driven when it comes to solving it. But that's one of the major dilemma our clients. I kind of scratching the back of Din and say I don't understand. I've got that big database that spend the thousands of dollars on every year. I've got that beautiful sales playbook that we build ourselves or we used or you know, operatics. May I well Don doing bits and pieces. We don't really do it, but we kind of help with the feedback we're getting from the prospect but yeah, it's about how you get all that singing and dancing sometime the dilemma. So that's where I was interesting, but maybe maybe finnows our conversation. My call. I've got one last question for you and it's about the onder me. I'm sorry, we're all fed up with covid nineteen, but since the start of the Bundermick, have you seen a shift or change to our bump prospecting? Have you seen the way people are going about it to be different? I know that you're speaking about your two thousand and twenty one. You can then, so I'm sure you've got some finding, but I'd like to discuss your main findings and your show. That was our gent piece. Yeah, sure, so I'll go back to a stat that I mentioned earlier, so that the average connect rate for a cold cause about four percent. And this was again the only bander I've mentioned connecting. So I just because they have this data so you can look at ut across millions of calls. They said the average connects rate for a cold calls, essentially you receive a number on your phone you don't know who it is, is four percent. So it's like less than one in twenty. That's gone up actually by one percent to five percent right. That seems like a very small number of the connect rates gone up by one percent. If you're doing fifty calls a day or a hundred calls a day even you're going to get either one or two more conversations every day or two days with that stat and...

...that means essentially, say you get four more conversations a week, that's sixty more conversations a month. I few of those turning to deals and you're selling into enterprise. That could be like millions, multi many of you've got lots of bdrs. That's, you know, potentially multimillions of revenue cost. So the point I'm trying to make is that actually cooling has become even more important this year and I think it's funny. There's always is these conversations like this, cold calling, Dad, etc. I think calling this year has it's become not easier, but the as I said, the connects rate has gone up and I think for me, I've always said, the phone is still the number one channel to prospect because you can have an interactive conversation. If I email you with a question, you don't really have to answer. If I linked in you with a question, you have to answer, where if I'm on the phone, ninety percent of the time you're going to answer because the only other thing you could do is hang up, which you know most people have the respect to not do that. Yeah, I think so. I think the phone has become even more important this year and then I think with the other channels, essentially I feel like it's become more difficult but it's also become more interesting. So I think, like you said, if you're like a sea level person at Microsoft or these big companies, you'll literally going to get two hundred prospects and emails a day. But your I still preach email but, like I was saying earlier, your messaging needs to be really good. So if you automate, you got to have a highly segregated list or if you're personalizing, you've got to really look into their linkedin profile and their company in order to stand out, because there's just so much noise on email now. Like you know, I'm a founder of a small company and I still get like a hundred emails a day. So I'm sure like big companies are getting thousands. So email can still work, but you've got to have really, really good messaging in order for it to work. So those, okay, the two find things that I've seen this year. Yeah, that's very useful, and then kind of send the same so be I'm glad we are under Sam ware Vlenc Yester, that that's fund off full. Well, look, make all as I said, probably a lot of food for sorts and thanks for sharing your insight today. I'd like to probably have another session with you because I''ve got a thousand more question but unfortunately we Gett into...

...the time a location. We don't want to keep our session too long because we want people to be on gage of our short piot of time versues. Sir, getting on into a long conversation. So we probably will probably do another session, but if anyone wants to connect with you may call discuss some of the ads that you you present it today, are more importantly, would like to engage with cross Jenny to set up their own personalized archie touch on Nich channel out bound self scaddens. Yeah, that would be the best way to get hold of your Ma Col yeah, of course. So very active on linked en. So you search Michael Hanson Growth Jennie on linkedin connect with me that. I'm one of those people. I tend to connect with with everyone. So feel free to con out with me and yeah, feel free to send me an email as well. So it's M Hanson at Growth Juniecom, notcom everyone makes that mistake. I couldn't get actually docom unfortunately, but yeah, email or linkedin and probably the two best ways. That's from the full. Well, thanks again for your time today. May Call. It was an absolute pleasure to have on the show. Likewise, Ryan the other forward to continue in the conversation you've been listening to be to be read Neue acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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