B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 11 months ago

117: B2B Marketing Trends for 2022 w/ Matt Heinz

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The years 2020 and 2021 have thrown so many curveballs at B2B marketers.

While we’re all planning for 2022, Matt Heinz, President at Heinz Marketing, joined us to share his predictions for what’s coming over the next year and beyond.

We discuss main trends expected in 2022, tech and tools marketers should explore, supporting the buyer journey and overcoming resistance, business events, and where to channel your budget.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

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You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Audiam, with you and I'm here today with Mattins, president at sins marketing. Are You doing today, Matt, Great, how are you? Very, very good. Thank you. Little bit called in the UK. What are you guys say? Why are you doing the podcast from? I am outside of Seattle, so not super warm here either. It's we don't get too crazy cold in the winter, but it's definitely deep in the fall here. Yeah, we get into it thus kind of doc ats three PM and starting to day. So it's we're going to find refuge at the pub. So and so it's gonna do. You Go. So today, with you met, we will be talking about the Bob Marketing prediction for two thousand and twenty two. So Super Fuscating to pick. But before we get into the subject, could you just give a quick introduction to yourself, as well as your company, of course, since marketing. Yeah, no, pleasure to be here. My name is Matt Hines, been doing bb sales and marketing for twenty plus years. Hinds Marketing. In pub speak, if we were in a crowded, noisy pub, I would tell you that we help companies sell stuff. We work with companies that have complex sales cycles and help them create predictable, sustainable, repeatable pipeline development and growth cements. But sounds very similar to what we do, but so very keme too to discuss in more details. Looking at two thousand and twenty two. Now we are. We are in the planning season right. Everybody's putting all the fore do I need, let's pick to this creful and I think the guys slightly, dear friend, because hey, how many people will come at the INPOSS and event that we used to do and get to let the flit from except right set us. I thinks I've been changing a little bit o that. I say, tea mouse. Okay, if we go back to normal next year in twenty two. But from your perspective, mats, what do you think of the main trends, Trians, that we can expect in twenty two? A couple things. I think they're deaf. I'm seeing a higher percent of spend on revenue technology, so sales and marketing tools, recognizing that we don't just need tools to do campaigns, but increasingly there are platforms that are helping companies manage their data, better understand the data they have and take make use of that data. So you don't necessarily need a bigger media spend. You need better insights to know what to say to the right prospect of the right time and then a coordinate that effort across channels as well as across customer facing teams. So we're seeing a greater emphasis on those tools as well as the systems in the people to empt to manage them. I'm also seeing a continued shift, and we've seen this for years now, but a continued shift from things that you buy two things that you create, or seeing more and more companies lean into the idea of becoming and creating their own media channel to where they don't have to pay the tacks of renting attention, that they can sort of create an own attention by, you know, moving from being interruptive in an advertising format to being irresistible as a source of content and insights.

So I think that the balance between bi versus create is changing in favor of create in a lot of organizations as well. Okay. So, so, if I far rephrase that, the fast tediment or on the inside the data is technically to beauty a bit more pertinent. When young age we Yawin us all. You could be a customers that draw marketing to a could be could be nick new that new customers on it, new prospects. Right. Would you associate that with a bit Morefa on account base type of shifts, of being more targeted? Move the snipe all approach of us? Is the Machian a gain? Yeah, I mean it's being more precise both at a at a contact level as well as at an account level. Right. And so I think you know every the end of the day, you the logo you want on the wall is the company that's going to sign right, like you're trying to sign if you're in DAB. Your targets are accounts, but the building will never answer your email. The logo will never attend the Demo. We still have to talk to people, right, and so inherently our communication is still one to one. It's still people to people. So we can't get it. We can't change that. But I think understanding that, both at an individual as well as an account level, that there's a deeper level of insights, intense signals and data that can dick and tell you out of an addressful market that maybe everyone in your industry, there's a percent of that addressful market that are your ideal customer, target customers based on a certain set of criteria, and there's a further subset of those ideal customers, again, ideal accounts, that are ready to engage with you right now. They're exhibiting signals that indicate they have a problem that you can help solve. They may or may not know that they have a problem, they may may or may not see those signals themselves. So this is my this is why I say data is the missing link for a lot of these companies. We're seeing many, many, invest in this now already and continue to invest it for two thousand and twenty two is how do I use my insights to figure out the precise companies that are ready for my message, that are ready for my engagement? So I'm not sending out tenzero direct mails at a time. I'm sending eighteen this week and fourteen next week. In twenty two, the next week to precisely the right people with the right message at the right time. That's what data and the systems behind the data can allow for us. Yeah, yeah, to because I see what we should have been from day one. Mean that well, sure me, but a I think we didn't. I mean some of this is brand new technology, right. They also in so there's a lot of emerging technology as making this possible, and that technology requires a different way of operating marketing and we're just finally in be to be getting to the idea for companies outside of Sass that marketing can be a revenue driver of the business, the carketing can actually sort of contribute to pipeline and not just do arts and crafts. And I think historically you've also got the idea that like to do demand or whether you're doing account based lead base, to do demand, you just go buy leads, right, whether you buy campaigns or you do a booth at the show or you sponsor or Webinar, that this is what marketing does, is we buy space and convert that into leads. And I think increasingly we're seeing again like bi versus create. You...

...can create that great content, you can create the insights, you can create the value and then figure out, through the data and your tools and your systems, which of those prospects need it right now. Yeah, that makes that makes up sides. Have had that. But so you mentioned a few technologies, and we don't want to promote Anywania, but you mentioned a few technologies at the like emailging Diecknoogi's. Would you men sharing like a couple of interesting platform that you've seen recently that you believe are actually emping some of your clients? So ill, friends, all will you are walking with to a treat achieved. That sort of better that I insite small pelts and then sing the targeting and they can keep it all response right, I guess, at the end of it. Yeah, I mean, I would say there's a couple things. I mean there's a company called caliber mind that basically takes input from a bunch of different sources and does the sort of the munging of to understand like what those different combined sources mean and then what you know you should do next, and it can give instruction to your outbound systems on when toube went in what to say. There's any company called near that is doing some really interesting work on data intelligence. Similarly, but it's sort of an embedded system that will look across all of your systems, across your product, across you see R am, across your marketing automation and give you some of those insights to know how to sort of create the right message to the right person at the right time. Also, I would just say sort of simple systems like cross beam, right. I mean cross beam is a partner management tool that allows you, with trusted partners, to see immediately where there's overlap between you of Cross your customers, across your prospect x, across your target account less and it's allowing firm companies to have to it's giving you the capacity in the insight to have a more coordinated approach, a more value based approach, to two prospects, to joint prospects, a joint customers. So I think you know those. Those those are a couple examples in a few different situations of insights that allow for better communication, for better value for buyers and four sellers. Yeah, and the Sicle Botle Dns that you gave me to to dnishort question about the trends. So you know, Defel spot was more or events. More that has riven the sign poplus model is in the concept of community building, that criting communities, I think. I think people had basically come to you to find information. So it's the concept, I guess, of of giving before you take, and you see what people are consuming because you've been giving them information in that domain, so much so that that you know they did the building and gustomize the kind of natural cause. Yeah, I think that's part of it, for sure. You know, I think you know, if you can cree, if you can create a place for your customers to get together and share with each other, a place where your folks in your industry, birds of a feather, can engage with each other without feeling they're going to get bait and switch pitched, I think that can be hugely valuable. And then, and I mean basically, if you think about that, I mean we're trying to find the three to four percent of companies in any given industry that have a problem that they're actively pursuing a solution for right and so in in in the past we've just blindly guessed, either blindly guessed at which they are or send our message to a hundred percent of people and hope to the three or four percent see it in respond right.

And so now, if you if you have a community, if you're hosting the conversation, you're seeing those buying signals play out right in front of you, right. But if you don't have that community, I think you still we have an obligation as marketers to reduce the noise in front of buyers, to get only the right message at the right time to people, so that we're actually reducing the amount of communication we do. We're reducing the marketing that we're doing, but doing it any more precise and far more effective way. Like we're not living in a most possible leads at the lowest possible cost scenario. Right now. You don't win as a marketer by have by getting the most possible natural search traffic. I don't care about the most, I care about the best, and so I will take far smaller numbers if those numbers are more effective and efficient for me as a seller, but also are engaging the buyers on the prospects at exactly the moment where I can provide the most value to them. That level of efficiency and precision is about quality, not quantity, and that is that is where we are going. You know, it's music to my hey, has a been in in a few conversation recently? Well, one of the false question out that was ask is how big is your database? Has Like I'll ridvan is that's well, the bigger yet that that BA is the best chokee. We've good to grab someone right and a concept of well, much in the t's anymore. We can just blessed team at and expect people to come. First of what, there is CCPA into you, as there is Gdpi in Europe. So we've got to GUTF CA, as you mention. I'm glad to saying that, because I don't think people mentioned that enough. You know, like we have a duty of cares not overwhelming the prospect, and I think the prospect would have more respect for your brain if you just stop sending the newsletter that are absolutely not relevant to them and try, in fact, to engage with a lot tree as the what do you want? How can I help you? How can I remp you to develop your knowledge or whatever? But yeah, I always get quite interested by that sort of question and it's going to serve s call stuff very bad yours like. Well, we may not be aligned. If you just want lots of data, lots of activities, we can do that. But what we were as all do, is a more fou slip or approach, lower volume targets. It be relevant and retindent, okay, and try to have a proper conversation. In that conversation we've got to be honest with the prospect is a look, you know, I want to qualify you as much as you want to qualify me. I don't want to find something on your scroot. I just don't know some the timing. is now a good take to engage or on now not a good time to engage? So yeah, I guess that's quite straightforward. What you've got one Byr in one type of company now, I'm sure, but you you come across destructive technologies and probably some of your clients are very distructive technologies were finding the right guy is the big issue. Right who is the buy with the actual Paston, because you may have a group of five or six that will be involved but when it comes to it, they may look at it shows it's okay. Who's going to take the way at out? was going to take a check book and pay for that stuff? And I'd like to understand how you you know, the two concept that we discuse. How can they apply to that sort of food? Keep Erson, now very complex tape of Johnny. I think.

I mean to simplify it. I think it comes down to consensus and confidence. You know, there may be like a cio that is going to own the purse strings and budget and she may be the ultimate decider of whether we're going to buy something, but in most in the vast majority of modern buying environments, the CIO is relying on her team to help determine what is a priority, where should we invest, what problems should we be solved and who can help us solve this? So you're looking for consensus amongst that internal group of buyers, users influencers to not only decide that there's a problem we're solving, but also to decide which vendor or service or technology is going to work to help with that. So that consensus is important in that consensus is built by sort of addressing confidences and I think my friend David Kirked, our first sort of talks about these four confidences that you need to address as you're working through the buying process. Like if you're if you're a seller. I know you've got your discovery call, on your demo call and your objection handling call on your proposal stage, but really you're working through a set of confidences. Do we have confidence that this is a big enough priority to solve? Do we have confidence that we have that we have quantified the size of the problem? Do we have confidence that if we solve this problem that it will achieve a certain outcome? Do we have confidence that this vendor in front of us is going to achieve all those things for us? Right? So, if you think about those steps of confidence and the consensus building amongst the group, yes, we all agree to those steps of confidence. Now you've got yourself a buying journey and now you've got something you can take back to the CIO and say we all agree, we all have confidence and we think we're ready to make this decision. If you don't have elements of those, but you've got someone that's just sort of saying yes, we're going to do this, it's a house on say and that, if you know, if priority shift of a pane, I'm it happens. You know, if you have a bad quarter, all of a sudden, like the deal goes away. Yeah, basically you shouldn't be relaing on one champion, champion in the organization, to push your stuff and sell for you. You should actually we get that consensus by going toward different people. We actually called that the deep dive at our end. So it's obviously slightly different and but but what we tend to do is, okay, what a different type of bio. There is the gay with technical, the gay with technical. What he wants to know? You also I'm gonna have to implement that stuff. All Right, I'M gonna have to walk at the weekend. I'm not going to do night shift to get it going. So we need to speak to him and other technical conversation with him. Say, you know what, Nice it seem less. Of course everything is fine. Then you've got the probably the budget order that may want to have a little bit of a business case. They may want to speak to customers. What's the written an investment? Except strike, except for us. So I think, coming back to the content creation that you're speaking about, I think it's also so important. Sometimes we see our clients and people in our network just pretty focusing on one or two keep personal the gay at the top. Let's influence again at the top, but it founded at the people on done these other people that can swear it on the day, in fact, sometimes when he comes from but the ups who had the...

...deal. It can happen very quickly. So he's Fretty on out of making traytive the consensus. He's actually a very the consensus in the confidence. Actually love Yourn's I think he's perfect. So I don't know what I'm but I'm trying to borrow phrasing. But he said it was like trually much better and I think that you know, you in an effort to create more simplicity around the buying committee. I think to your point, sometimes we try to say, okay, who really has the power right, and I think you can answer that question, but it's going to be insufficient. Like the more people you think about in the organization that have a vested interest in this, the better. For example, like there's a company here outside of Seattle that sells a wellness product. It's a wellness system for companies to sort of introduce and help just increase wellness among their employees. So you think, okay, who's the buyer that? Well the CFO IS gonna have to buy into it, maybe someone in hrs gonna have to buy into it, maybe there's a benefits manager who's got to buy into it. But when we work with this company, our best source of new opportunities was finding the enthusiasts, the people somewhere in the organization who were already always organizing people to like do the the Kfun run right, or who were the you know, who were the cross fit experts, who just really were excited about wellness, and we're look at we'd look excited about a way to bring that to work. To get them excited about to have them evangelize it from the inside is going to be far more effective than having my twenty two year old st are sort of pound the phones on that senior person who doesn't want to answer the call. Now listen to Joan from accounting who says this is a good idea. Right. So I think so, I think thinking and the other the other thing you have to think about as well is who are the negative influencers in this deal? So we can talk about building consensus and building confidence, but if you go into an organization to say this is this is a tech product, but you don't need it involve you can implement yourself. Will guess who gets concerned about that? Pitch it right, or procurement? Procurement in many companies as the sales prevention department. So if you understand up front, like what is the perspective of procurement your organization, how do we make sure this deal doesn't get stalled, because you need this outcome as much as I need this deal. Understanding all those different members is not only going to help you build consensus but also help keep your deal on track. That's Pung off. WHO THE COMING BACK? It will be to two thousand and twenty two and and Y'all prediction in which you see. I mean I could get on about that. To pick up of relevance, pelts, Inns and out different the complexity. I love it, so try to retain my self. Raid to it from it. I'd like to get your opinion events. So with the pund to make, will know about that. So we are getting back to it. Think that moved online, things are kind of coming back in person. We've seen a few events being post punt at the less minute and some of them taking place. People posting on Linkedin are you going? Are you not going? It was Billi in person. Anyway, I'd like to get you all sorts on that and what what you what you on? Dust on from the marketing time of TRANSP next shot. You think events will come back in Pelson? Should we invest in in viature? What I usepose? Yeah, I mean, events are already back in person. There's plenty of there, events that are...

...happening on a regular basis. Is everyone comfortable going to them? No. Is Our events going to look exactly like they did before pandemic? No, of course not. But you know, we're never going to go through airports the same way we did before. You know, nine hundred and eleven here in the US, right, and so there's certain things that are going to change forever. Look, we've been like we're as we record this where you know we're doing we got our video on, we're look at each other. This is this is a miraculous technology that we can do this from. You know, you're in the UK, I'm several time zones away, and here we are doing this live like. So we've had this kind of technology for maybe what like eight or ten years. You know, we've been using the seam actively for the last couple we've been meeting facetoface as humans for tens of thousands of years at least, right and so we are predetermined. We are our brains are hardwired to want to be within, to communicate directly with other people, and so I think that for that reason an others, live events are going to are going to are already back and we'll continue to do well. I think that we're seeing an opportunity, though, to take a set of content and expand its reach an impact through hybrid events. So I think we're going to increasingly see in person events where you know there's certain things you can only get in person, certain value you can like get in person. But whenever a company does, you know, an in person event, there's always a percent of people that wish they could be there but for whatever reason can't go right eas either money or time or other commitments. So you can't just turn on a Webcam and say we're doing a hybrid event. You're going to have to invest in resources and strategies to make that hybrid work. But I think that's actually going to make events even more important for companies. I also think by doing more online events, my hope is that more companies will see the event itself as the Middle Point and perhaps the bright spot in a broader plot campaign plan like an event is not a campaign. An event is a tactic and ideally any event that you've been doing and we'll do moving forward to have a before, during and after to help you get maximum orrow. So you know, I'm hopeful that we're going to be more considered about the events we do. You know, there could be sort of borderline events pre pandemic. They just aren't gone or aren't invested in now, and so I think we'll see a little bit of a shake out there. But we will continue to get on planes, will continue to get together in person. Maybe, maybe events we drive two versus fly two more for a while, but I'll be back. You made me smile again about the the the events just being like touch point in a in a bigger strategy. Els's just the campaign. You'll be sho prized about the amount of time while we just being contacted to drive them on sits and we try to pick to this prospect. It's okay. Well, what about face pick to Matt is really interested by YA staff. They come them to the event. What about them speaking to Matts, but the events in January. He wants to speak to you now. Yeah, and unfortunately sometimes we'll get peoples in that we just want them on hits, we just want to pay for them on says. We just want that. So it's kind of that. So well, okay, but what we should do is to use it as an excuse to engage. We should, we should use it as an excuse to show value to shore that we are trying to remain riven. But you're if it's a company event, not reent industry event, when you just have a booze and you've got thousands of people there. Yeah, it's it's about having a story behind it and so...

...look, it's an opportunity for us to get together. If you're not done as great, but it shouldn't be the only equal to action. It should be one of the many qual to action. You should look at it from the prospect perspective, because some people don't want to travel and I think what we see, also some of the feedback with that, is people don't want to travel for different reason. Obviously a lot of it is the pumbly make and the risk link to it, but I think there is more and more people at at becoming sustainably emotionally smart. You know, they're like, well, I'm going to take a plain to God, I just for a couple of days. That's really what I want to do. I mean what, I won't stop the plane from going, but my impact is I've read it like that because you know, it's farmers farm a stress of a carbon footprint. So it's interesting. Our just thing evolved. But coming back to the pond, thenics likely, and that's question I've asked the queshion to a few of our guests. Have you seen any other other trends that marketers have learned over the course of the pandemiage you will see carrying on in the future, like pit changes? Yeah, you know, I think that we're certainly seeing an acceleration of channels going of more the channels being digital. But I think the companies that are winning right now, in the companies that are going to see differentiation and they see of digital in the two thousand and twenty two, are those that figure out how to make digital human right, how to make it something that feels interesting and that look, I mean as we record this and on how much you do do this on video but, like you know, it's kind of a it's a stormy day. So then go to the office today. You know, I got my piano behind me, I got my little Lego Chess Board up here that I play with my kids. I mean, I think we are all people behind you know, whoever's buying, like, you know that CIO, they said, like, is trying to make decisions, you know, for the company. Like is also like thinking about the Lacrosse game they got to take their kids to the next you know, next day, and sort of is is. You know, there were humans behind the be to be in, especially in be to be. I think we've out. I think for a long time we've just treated ourselves as professionals. Yeah, and I think there's a humanization of me to be. There a humanization of the B tob sales process, there's a humanization of digital that is going to be a requirement for companies moving forward and I think it will differentiate those that lean into it and accept some of that personalization, some of humanization, even some of the imperfection that will go along with accepting the humanity of just who we are and how we engage. I'm excited for what that's going to be in to bring this conversation for a circle. Your ability to do that with the insights you have, by taking the data you have about someone, knowing what you do, about the whole person, the whole company, and make creating a more impactful message. Don't send me six emails, you know, a week at a time over six weeks. Find a way to get one message to me at the right time with something that is most valuable to me. That will show me that you care about my time, that will show me that you're paying attention and leaning into what matters to me, and that will work for the buyer and the seller. It's true. I mean the humanization of the conversation. One of the he had to realize my set fees. We always had a lot of clients in the bay area and for some reason I was traveling to so the frontis school a good vest. Majority of them were like, oh no, we don't need to meeting personal, let's do a zoom call. But when we used to do the zoom called back in the days, not a lot of people used to put the camera on. You know, people would be a phone working and...

...just the zoom call. I think now you know you're tuly have that thing as well. People had to come ready in the morning, prepare themselves and you've got the dog coming, the cap doing, the kids coming, everybody screaming. You've got the Amazon Guy, got the Amazon Guy. You're probably at that thousand time amst that's been doing well. Clearly everybody gets abouzon delivery all the time. So yeah, I think. I think that humanization is quite interesting and it's something that should have always existed. I think the small took I've always been quite important, a little bit in a way, because but I think it is personal, but we share a bit more Latin my way of thinking, being French. But I can tell for a shot, when you know French, Spanish, Italian, we don't just buy the product. We buye. We want to buy the best product, but we also buy from a person. You buy from an individual and you need to about sort of I find it very difficult to be something. Even if someone's got the best product but they are just not a nice person, I'll just don't really get on with them. I'll just think that they are to fallsblow whatever. It's a bit more difficult for me to just press the button and go for it. I don't clink of creating something that is a bit more emotional than just purely commercial is, as always been, very important and yeah, I think agree with you. It's something that we will keep. Now my last question, because we were getting to the end and we need to let you go at some point, unfortunately. Matt my last question to you, and it maybe like a very wide open one, but where do you think to be market or treating this done budget next joze, do you have any recommendation for anyone listening to us? We've just seen scrutching the back of Dad Thinking, okay, should I do the twenty Pusundays Selgy pus? And that's why would you put Y'alls? It's a great question. I think the easy answer is okay, like what number you need to hit next year and what is marketing need to support that number? Like that's the easy thing. And unfortunately most budgets really sort of just look sort of a year in advance and if you're only looking a year in advance, you're going to invest in short term Roy efforts that are going to fill the pipeline immediately. If I sold you or if Katerina if I said, Caterina, I need you to hit your number three years from now, but I don't want to pay the tax of having to rent attention from other places. If I told you I want you to build a media channel, I want you to build attention and earn attention from our audience, build a community, build the channel. What would you build? That may not have sort of a queue, one pipeline Roi right away, but it would become that would subsidize demand requirements, you know, to three years from now and it would create massive competitive differentiation because of how attractive you are, because of our attractive your content is, because of how attractive your community is. I'll tell you. I mean I think that the companies that have invested in these things and these don't bear fruit right right away. This isn't weeks months, this is quarters and years. But if you're going to be around for a while and you want to sort of get from sort of growth phase where you're sort of getting logos to scale phase where you want to grow more efficiently, more profitably, investment in these content channels, investment in that community, is a massive payout, but it takes a little bit of courage up front. It takes a different conversation, not just...

...with you but with your cflon with your board, to say we have a vision for what this is going to do medium and long term for the business. Not An easy decision to make. I mean, and you knows, as we grow we're having those investment conversations internally as well. But boy, I mean I think look at the companies that are scaling. I look at the companies that are that don't have to pay the Google tax because the audience is coming to them for questions, they're coming to them for insights. That is a very powerful position to be in. The point of this year, when this here I was, I was proven wrong. Like at are you now about Brending, like grant me to invest in brands. It's like now it's just was the point of that? We just need to do something. We comping results in one month, but it's good to be need to track it and brand something that we invested on and obviously we needn't try and add that. Youreka. Moment while when that went to an event, in fact meeting with a with a prospect, and the prospects fasten. It told me it's about I thought about you luck. In fact, I had street conversion of that nature. That's at that said event, all these people said, I've thought about your lots through the community and look at what you do online and everything, and I think we need yourself. This is but really the question I've got to I don't know if I kind of fault them. And that's the sort of things where, wow, okay, what's that? The image that we created you? We've created that image of a premium thing. That's you got. People are actually been questioning your ability to do it. Their question in their ability to be able to offer themselves the sales, if you will, and that probably took eighteen months, two years, to kick off. Probably a fair few argument between get AIN and I. She probably, you know, drove back home and swearing at me our car. It's just like, was that gay and everything, and then now I've completely changed. So now we mean we say, just is that digly co under something that some of the action that you are doing? You need to do it because you don't want to return. You want to you do it because you want to make an impact to the community, to the people at treat it. You know, it's like doing the podcast. Do we do the podcast to get to win business, to get people know? We don't. We do podcasts because we want to say at the bleading edge were always interested by the conversation. Why? We have some fantastic guess people who are great. We make friends out of it and that's creating a community, a group of people, and we love that. But of course there is the knock on effect of a you know what, I listen to your podcast with much really the conversation. I'd like to do some business with your right, but I think, and the last point that I would make to kind of compliment what you are saying, that sometimes it's actually better to do something for the right reason, like right contents, do podcasts whatever, for the right reason. That's she's trying to do it to generate leads. Should come from something that's is good. If you focus just on creating the leader, I don't think you create good stuff. You create sellt up. Probably not really smart. Well in this in I'll tell you, I agree with all of you what you're saying, and I think some of this comes down to like how well can you attribute these longer term investments into pipeline? I mean, like I've had a podcast for five years. Like I don't know everybody who listens to...

...it, I don't know everybody that subscribes to it. Do I believe it's a good part of our content strategy? Yes, absolutely. Do I believe that it is positively impacted perception, trust, credibility and probably some pipeline? Yeah, do I track all that? Know, but that just because I can't track it doesn't mean it's not valuable. On the other side, we do, and I guess Katerina knows, like we co host a CMO group that is grown pretty significantly over last year and a half and in that case, like, we know exactly who's in the CMO group. There is no pitching in the CMO group. Quite frankly, candidly, I think some of the CMOS in the group don't actually know that I run a consulting business on the you know that that I'm I have to make payroll on. They think I'm just a speaker, a host of this thing. Fine, so we don't pitch it at all, pitch in there at all, but because we know who's in it and because we have, you know, people that are in it or are in a campaign assigned as a member of the broad I can see what kind of pipeline comes out of this initiative that I don't pitch at at all. We're like half the members don't even know what my company does, but I can tell you it's my single best contributor to pipeline in two thousand and twenty one, even though it's something that I'm not pitching at. It's been an investment in community, it's been an investment in content's been in constantly investing in and protecting the value of the group, which means the opposite of pitching, the opposite of making offers right and I'll tell you I mean, just having seen how that works and having seen the eat, the explicit economic impact it's had on our business. That's why we are doubling down on things like the podcast and linkedin content and others, because I know that that's impact is happening elsewhere as well, and it is the efficiency of that as a pipeline driver versus where I might have to go pay and rent attention other people. The gap is significant. Yeah, I saw so much more fun to something you like. I think, Oh yeah, there's that too. That mean and and the back to your comment about sort of we it's you know, you we don't always buy the best of the cheapest. Sometimes we buy from people we enjoy, we buy from people we have a relationship with. And so when you can build a relationship with someone through having interesting conversations, like by having like, you know, by sort of just, you know, just, you know, being able to talk about off our stuff as well getting to know the real person behind the CIO boyd, I mean that is such a competitive differentiator and we'll lead the deals and then, you know, less point is on that twenty is we have so many, so many, so many, so many, so many prospect coming back to us this year from Cercai chords that well fed you in the last two years for us. So basically, what I'm saying a failure on they want not to failure in some of the we didn't win the deal, yeah, but we had a conversation with the prospect but we put ourselves from the day. They want to tread for us. We want to really for them. They want to say difference. I think that Onnesteem, the Sert cycle is also very, very key. Yeah, that we've been speaking very much focusing on the marketing people, but I mean to all the sorts people listening to us. I think you don't. It's very difficult to under something when you are setting and you are another pressure off for quota at actually even good explain us to a prospect and say to a prospect, you know what not, I don't think he's for us. I don't think there is a good fit. I don't know you feel about it, but I don't think there is a good fit. I might personally believe that we should leave it there. Many...

...we speak again in six months even. Sometimes we even give them a reast of competitors. We said, let's company should go for, because you want that sort of business model. We don't offer it. We can't offer it for that end thatch reason. So we explain. However, I know two or three companies that would be my go to if you want to go to that business model and they do that stuff for a bit of time and when they come back, you know you create that trust and nothing is so, so, so important that to have the honest relationship, not just a cogno relationship, but that honest relationship is what pays off. I think us, when I speak to my self, s team, just myselfs Guy, don't need to pick up the food anymoe. No, we have referrals from people who like us. We speak to US other people and they are not all great, but it's about planting good seat. You leave a experience to people and if you live a good experience, no matter what the outcome is, you get a pee or you don't get a peal, it doesn't matter. It's a good experience. That person will remember that good experience and hopefully, when the time is right, come back to you. Oh, tell their friends when they're looking for something similar to your stuff, that they should go to you, because you know, trying to trick them into something. You just trying to do the right thing for everybody. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean you're back to sort of relationships, some playing along game. You know, if you're just thinking about this month to month, quarter to quarter, are you gonna buy from me now? You can buy from me now. I mean that's look, we all got to hit our number quarter to order, right, but I think you know the relationships you have with individuals, the relationship you have with organizations, are going to go are going to last day very long time. They're going to remember how you treated them. They were going to remember whether you push them into the deal they weren't ready for. And the way you treat them when they're not ready to buy. We way you treat them when they're not a prospect is going to heavily impact not only how they engage with you when you when they are ready to buy, but also how they tell other people about you. Like one of the lagging indicators of doing this well is seeing that the majority of your referrals come from prospects, not from customers. If you have your prospect sending people to you because are like, I haven't used the product yet, but but these guys are good, these guys will lean in, these guys do what they say. These guys treat you right and that you that. You know, you that that means an awful lot and goes an awful long way and you know, no matter how digital, no matter how remote, no matter how hybrid we get in two thousand and twenty two and beyond like that is going to continue to be critical. Yeah, it is. Sometimes prospects even fund it to beat. Well, you know what you tend every look. I'm not be too do those all code with you? I'm not. I know that it's not far as we won't move on on, but let's do those all codes so we can speak about your text. I can ever think I'm up. Yeah, you guys, that a wall. Are you sure? I'm not sure. Sure it, of course, but what are you trying to say it? They are. I kind of concern that you're going to try to when actually what you're trying to do is just to be you trying, I think, being useful. This is what is what's very important, but unfortunately, I mean, we could have carried on forever. I'm at you. I just said when I come to Seattle or you and I ready to go for dinail fall beat, because I think we can have a we kind of a late when spick about all of those things. Oh yeah, we're in a sumount of question. But the question I ask at this stage of the podcast is every if everyone wants to carry on the conversation with...

...you discussed about twenty, twenty two, end beyond, because you know, obviously y' also to me was just look at twenty two, but beyond, which is which is the right one strategy, or if they want to engage with the company running the paper or fall, which I think is also important, and they would like to on the wellcience marketing could support them in the strategy and Dogo to market. What is the best way to get all of you met? Yeah, thank you for asking. I think I'm just hinds marketing ATI and Z MARKETINGCOM. We got a ton a great content, all available for free. Lots of research, lots of benchmark reports, some best practice guide, sort of an ongoing stream, a good sort of what we think is good content that we will either we create or we create content from a lot of other sources. So if you're in BB sales and marketing, come check it out. Take what you want, but also for me, I'm just Matt, Amatt at Hinds Marketingcom. Any questions, anything I can do for anyone? Let me know. Yeah, lots of content on your website. Actually had a good look and can side that you're drinking your own Champaign, not just spicking about it but doing it funnil send, which is wonderful. It was actually pleasure, might, to have you on the show today and hope we can connect against into too. Came on that. We will do it again for sure. Make sure Caterina gets more budget. You've been listening to be to be read the new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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