B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 7 months ago

112: Building a Community: Know Your Purpose w/ Sam Jacobs

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Don’t build a community because you just want to be in charge of something or have a captive audience to sell to.

Build a community because you genuinely want to help others without asking anything in return. Over the years, this will bring so much good into your personal and professional life.

In this episode, we interview Sam Jacobs , Founder and CEO at Pavilion , about how he grew a small group of New Yorkers into a community of over 6,000 global leaders.

We discussed the evolution from Dinner Club to Revenue Collective to Pavilion, having long-term goals in a short-term environment, some of Pavilion’s successful initiatives, the launch of Pavilion University, and supporting each other as a way of doing business.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Our goal is to teach us many different people as possible that helping other people, being supportive, being kind and compassionate is a good way to do business and as a way to succeed. You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be revenue acceleration. My name is alien, with you and I'm here today with some Jacobs Fund and see you at Pavilion. Former revenue connective. How you doing today? Some I'm doing very well. How are you all really? And I'm good, very very good, very very good. So today we want to speak about building community and I think most of the people will be listening to the pizza today. I've held off revenue collective, unless they are, like you know, iiding somewhere, going going off the great fall a while. First question for you and in first so what I'd like to get a little bit of an introduction. You know, Y'all set up for you come from the start off for revenue collective, but it will also be very good to undos on why you change them from room and you connective to pavilion if yould mentor Chic and on that as well. Sure. So, yeah, nice to meet you and everybody that's watching or listening. My name is Sam Jacobs. I'm the founder and CEEO pavilion. We used to be called revenue collective. My personal background, I've been working at venture capital backed high growth companies and startups since two thousand and three. Before that I was in finance and I actually ran a record label and was in the music industry for a little while, but that was not successful. And really since two thousand and three when I moved to New York for the second time, I've been kind of building companies from the from the revenue side. I worked at one very successful company for seven and a half years called Gerson lemmo group through two thousand and ten and then from two thousand and ten to two thousand and eighteen, it was shorter and shorter stints at subsequent companies. Worked at a company called axial for four and a half years. I then ran sales for a company called live stream, which was sold to Vimeo, which just went public, for and I work there for eighteen months. I then was the chief revene officer of a company called the mews for nine months and then I was the chief revene officer for a company called behave oks for ten months. So my stints were shrinking and the most of the time not because I was choosing to leave, but because I was being asked to leave or the companies weren't succeeding, and I needed a community, I needed help, and so I started bringing people together in New York just to share stories, to make the sales leaders in the marketing leaders the center of the ecosystem, because in every other place the founders were the center or the investors were the center. But I wanted to create a community that was really just for operating professionals, and so we called it the New York revenue collective and I didn't have any grand aspirations. I didn't really think much of it because starting a dinner club, which is what we were starting, a dinner club with...

...an email group, is about the easiest thing in the world to do, and so I figured every city must already have something like our revenue collective and I would just focus on being the community for New York. And it turned out that every city did not have something like revenue collective, or if it did, it they had been structured in different ways, ways that I didn't think we're optimal. And so people from all over the world really began to hear about what we were doing and reaching out to me. The first person that reached out to me was a guy named Tom Glasson in London and he started he ended up starting the London chapter of revenue collective, and then we quickly launched a variety of new cities, Boston, Toronto and more. And still at the time I only began working on at full time at the end of two thousand and eighteen and I really at that point I said, you know, if we can get to twozo people by the end of two thousand and twenty, then we will be you know that I can live right, I can pay my rent, I can be alive. It doesn't have to be, you know, the biggest company in the world, but it can help me, you know, not get fired again because I was working for myself and it just it just something that became very, very popular, particularly during Covid when people needed community and they needed resources and they needed assistance and help and they were facing more uncertainty than ever before, and so we ended up moving well past two tho by the end of two thousand and twenty we were close to three thousand seven hundred total members, all paying members, and so that was that. And then you asked why did we change the name, and this is a bit you know, so sorry for being longlanded, but the there's a couple things that the big idea behind what we're doing is not is not really about anyone profession anymore. Right, we started focusing on salespeople, but, as we mentioned offline Arelian, we have a CEO community now. Yeah, was left out, and know or my any community. The purpose of what we're doing, the purpose of why do we exist, and this is, I think, important and different, because a lot of people start communities either for their own sake, meaning like just networking, which is not why we exist, or to sell, to sell software. Right, you start a community, you're at last end you have a community, you want to sell more, at last see into that community. But our community exists for a different reason, and that reason is to help each member fulfill their career goals. We call it unlocking and achieving their professional potential. And it's bound together by a code of conduct that says that we're going to help each other, we're going to support each other, we're not going to spam each other, we're not going to use the community to sell things to each other. Directly, we can sell things to each other by being helpful to each other, but generally speaking, this is going to be a world where we believe that helping other people is a path to personal success. And that's a very specific belief that is not shared by everybody in the world.

And so that belief is not about salespeople, it's not about marketing people. That belief is that there's a different way to do business. By helping and supporting each other, we can all be successful. The world is not zero sum and that vision is not specific to salespeople. It's really true of any kind of profession and our goal is to teach as many different people as possible that helping other people, being supportive, being kind and compassionate, is a good way to do business and is a way to succeed. And that's the reason. Fundamentally, there are other reasons that. The tactical reason is that everything. There are two million things that are called blank collective, and so there's not a lot of defensibility around that framing. But also the word collective is a little bit inward looking, it's a little bit defensive. It it implies and US versus them. Pavilion is not about US versus them. As I said, CEO's can join, investors can join, anybody can join. It's about helping you as a human being get where you want to go in your career. And so it just, frankly, it's a bigger, more open, more inspiring, I think, idea and brand then revenue collective, and so that's why we changed it. Yeah, so thank you for as but I love this story. Really read love this story. I think it's some quite interesting. It j actually stunt you from something wrensi reinform or something that you felt was was required, and you start it's more than you know, at the presumption that you would be done any swhere and then realize it was not done. A nice getting that thing. That's growing and it's very successful. And I'm second thing, I'm very glad that you opened up for CEOS. I did say nothing to make Tim but I was extremely jealous because everybody speaks about your new collective. I was invited to one of your events in in London on Tuesday. In fact, I could not participate, but there was. I was really I was really feeling left out. So I'm glad that you know CEOS cannot participate and I'll get I'll get some details from you and see how I can get my self you start. Last thing really you mentioned something. You mentioned Covid, you know, and you mentioned that you you saw that you really went big in Covid, and I think this is really interesting because we did feel that covid kind of the mindset of people changed. Lots of things drop. People are to find solution. People did not know what to do and in a way, from a business perspective, from a capitalistic business perspective, people almost become a little bit kinder with each other. Do you think you would have seen the growth you've seen without the ponderic? Is Basically my question. I guess I don't know. I don't know the answer. I we were, you know, March, we were growing very quickly, that's for sure. Before covid. The thing that was helpful, you know, and obviously you're always very you know, you want to be cautious and mindful about how you frame growth during the pandemic because there was so much tragedy and so much, so much pain and suffering. However, as you said, from a capitalistic business perspective, you know, we...

...were. What it really did, which was useful to our business, was it forced us to be obviously digital first, like everybody before Covid, we were really much more focused on in person events. And that's good if you're in London because we have, you know, five hundred people in London and so there's always in person events to go to. But if you're in Minneapolis or if you're in Paris, or if you're in Bangalore or somewhere anywhere that's not a very big city. Or you know, you live in, I don't know, Brighton or something like that. You or Manchester. Right, you're not in London, but you're maybe a couple hours from London, then you really weren't getting any kind of meaningful experience from revenue collective. Now Pavilion, the slack community is global, but we want to be more than just slack. The covid forced us to like you know, we were doing about one webinar every two two weeks, maybe one a month before covid. Now we do forty, fifty, sometimes sixty different digital events every single week. And you know, we were we didn't have any kind of online learning programs. Now we have over twenty different courses and schools. So Troue, Pavilion University all delivered online. So I think what it did was it actually forced us to build a different and, candidly better business, because the digital business is a higher margin, easy and it's easier to deliver a meaningful experience no matter where you live, whereas before covid you had to sort of be near one of our big hubs. Yeah, I don't know if we would not have. You know, I I think instead of thinking about it like would we have grown as quickly without Covid, I just think that I was very because I have friends that run other kinds of similar businesses. There's a company in New York. I won't say their name, but they were a dinner like they were an events business. They would bring together like minded people, like salespeople, are CEOS on behalf of sponsors and they would post really nice dinners. They are very you know, there are a lot of similarities to their business as to ours. They went out of business in two thousand and twenty. They went from a couple million dollars in revenue to, I think, Fifteenzero in refinue total for the whole year, and I think it was just that we responded to it very aggressively. You know, we were very decisive about saying, Hey, this is an opportunity. If we think about it that way, we need to rise to the moment. So yeah, now that makes perfect sense. I know. Was the thing that you mentioned in your en Troy's the he's kind of the Cud of conducts, you know, and I completely agree with he's you having ill. Many times you receive an email to a nice Dina somewhere or you know, we're going to do a way be now, these are that like minded people get with your pias and stuff, but you know, at at the end of the day, what they want to do. They want to falls down, set speech down your strowensity or something. But at the same time, you know, I think pretty much ninety pert of of our customers are speaking about wanting to build...

...communities. So you know, from a value perspective, from from a setup perspective, what do you think I do right? Value, if you want to build a successful community? I mean, could you have community what you actually sell to people and it's okay, or do you think you know, you've got to go for being a giving community or sharing community? But I don't want to. I wouldn't want to join that that. I mean they're there, are those selling communities. I think there's a thing. I'll be, and I I don't know if you know that, a reliant, but then yes, it's, you know, you show up every morning or whatever, you meet once a week and everybody shares leads. It's not inspiring to me. I went once and I'm definitely never going to go back. I think. Yeah, I mean, I so, I guess. Do. I think that if you want to be successful you have to do it? I don't know. I mean we do. I do. I have a very particular point of view about why, why this works and so far, because it seems to continue to grow, I think that there's some merit to it. I think too many people. Again, the whole point of like everybody wants to build a community is again sort of like represent seditive of to me. What is short term thinking right? Because nobody. I don't want to just be in a community to be sold to. I need help as a human being, right, I don't. And I'm somewhat introverted, which is somewhat funny that I run a global I don't. I have lots of things to do with my time. You know, I'd like to read, I like to play guitar, like to be with my wife and my dogs. I don't need to go out for no reason. Right, there needs to be a purpose and and so you know, most people don't have a purpose. Besides, we want to get a bunch of people together and sell them things and and we are all aware of that. And so I think, I think there needs to be values, and there are a lot. You know, we've actually we've acquired two communities and we've been in conversations with many, many more, and and that's because, you know, when we could talk about that growth strategy. But but the reason that all of these conversations are very easy doesn't mean that people all want to sell to us. They don't, but it's because we all come to come at it from a pretty similar perspective, which is that the point of what we're doing isn't just to sell things to each other, or at least it's not to shell things to each other immediately. Yes, you part of what we're trying to underscore is that. I you know, I talked about this so a lot. You know, I saw Larry Page on stage one time with Saragey and he was saying, you know, you in this is paraphrasing and maybe he's not the first person that said it, but you know, it's you can accomplish far less than you think in a quarter and you can accomplish way more than you think in ten years. And his point is that sometimes your time horizon can be a competitive advantage. If you just play a longer game when everybody else is playing a shorter game, you could do more things than might be expected. Yeah, I think that's the approach that we take to community. It's not that you can't sell people things. You'll sell them things over a...

...year, and the way that you'll sell them something is by being helpful and by build trust incredibility, and then when people trust you, they want to do business with you. It's not that nobody wants to do business, it's that I just don't want to be beat over the head big I tend one Webinar and all of a sudden I'm getting fifty two emails from styrs, you know, with like messaging that's ten years old. Yea. Now progect it, to be fair, is the very right preason. You started the very much when you thought you year and try to make money out of it. You just try to get what you want now, your community member to get, which is this information, the connection, the relationship with people and being with late many people and sharing information, so that that that makes perfect sense. Also, so some what would you say of if you can just just name a few, some successful initiatives? That's your team has drove to get PAV pavilion. What is today? Well, I think there's a couple things. And again the first is that is the business model, again, sort of speaking again about short term versus long term time for risings, it's very tempting for people to build, to want to build a free community, and I talked about this a lot. The thing that happens if you want a business and you want the community to be free, then your members are going to be the product and you're going to be selling them to sponsors or you're going to so one thing that we've done that's been very successful is simply asking people to pay. relatedly, not, and then no other business model. So we don't. Everybody will tell you when you start a community you should start a headhunting business, an executive search business. So many people parlay their community into like a recruiting business. Well, you know, I work in Sass and recruiting revenue is transactional revenue. Is Not nearly as valuable as recurring revenue and it's a much simpler, cleaner model. To think about it almost like Amazon prime, where you pay a fee and we try to deliver as much value as we can for that fee and we don't have any other incentives. So I don't take kickbacks or referral fees. Everybody wants to do some kind of like, you know, strange commission deal. I don't want to be, you know, necessarily like that kind of channel for anybody. All we do is we have a simple business model. So that's one thing that I think. Again, it takes longer. Sometimes you might be giving up a hundred thousand dollar executive search retainer, but over time you build a bigger community because people trust that your heart and your incentives are in the right place. And so you know, that's that's one thing that we've done. The second thing, and we are not alone in this, but lots of lots of people have done it and it's it's a beautiful thing, which is one of the biggest complaints people have when they join revenue collective. Now pavilion is it's so overwhelming, there's so much content, there's so many people to meet, they're not sure where to start. So this year we launched Pavilion University and we launched with our first program which is cro school, which we launched in the spring of two thousand and twenty one and it was hugely successful and since then we've launched again. I think the numbers up to twenty at this point. Right now we have running enterprise, go to market school SDR Acceleration...

School, Frontline Manager School, Chief Marketing Officers School, a chief customer officers school. So why is this helpful or useful or what's interesting about it? So these learning programs are and we're not the only people to do this, but I think it's an interesting insight. They're all live. They're not you're not watching a video. They're live and they are, and this is important. They are cohort based so you take a lecture on a zoom, you know, you hear me or you talk reliant for for, you know, ninety minutes and there's four hundred people, you know, on the zoom. But after that you're broken up into small groups that you meet with once a week and those groups are fifteen people. And what that does is two things. First is that it gives you an ability to meet other people and digest the content and to have a conversation about it. But, more importantly, it helps you build deeper relationships within the community through the context of the school. And so that's been we've now got close to three thousand. You know, we have sixty two hundred people total in our community as of today. We have almost half of those people in some kind of learning program and we've received, you know, very, very positive feedback from this program. So I guess one thing that we've done successful was just simply structured the business and design the business in the right way. And then the second is, you know, something that's that's been this year has been launching to bill in university. It's been very successful. Yeah, space wonderful and university. So, as you mentioned, what you are doing in some of the interim of the process. You've got the courses and then you've got to break group. What are the people actually doing in those groups? Are they working on common project while just sharing their learning from the coast themselves? You know, how do you get them to actually participate to the follow up session? Because, you know, what I love about that is that we are trying at operatics, but we've got the content, but we are trying to build what we could on operatics academy. It's an internal tool. We not even thinking about the external but, as you mentioned, lots of contents. There is lots of way to do what we do. It sells. It's lots of different techniques and we want to we see anybold our gays as much as possible. But what we find out, one of the issue at we face when we do the training is that people come to the first leg chair. You know, they listen to it, but it is the consistence and it's almost like when you train for, I don't know, being a bit better golfer or better runner, it's the repetition, is the actual training that that makes makes you successful. So I'm very interesting told us on the because that's very deferent or so the needs to the group that rob redding. So when you get them to doing the squiton groups, I'll do you get them between interact and so we left to apply, even though for most of the schools there's a few and next year we will charge for more of them because you know, it's very the market. Talk about this for a long time. But the first is that you apply and when you fill out the application, even though there's no cost, we say you have to, you have to attend these study group sessions. We take attendance for the Study Group sessions. We actually take...

...attendance. You will not get a certificate of completion unless you have at least ninety percent attendance in your cohort groups. So we sort of make it very, very clear that if you want, because there that's part of this is essentially gamification, right. There's yeah, there's a badge that you get at the end which is your certificate that says congratulations, you've completed Cerro School. You can put that on your linked in profile, you can put that places, you can tell people about it, but you're only going to get that badge if you attend. So that's part of it. Part of it is just making sure that we give cohort leaders. So we both select and train people on how to lead the session and we make it very clear that your attendance and participation is expected. That said, there are of course, because it's so dependent on the group. You know, some people have it. It doesn't work perfectly. I suppose. Some people have amazing experiences, some people don't, but for us it's anybody that's having any kind of amazing experience is more amazing experiences than, of course, if they've never had the class or they've never been in the group. There's enough people that have amazing experiences that makes it a very powerful essentially, you know, net promoter score tool for us, or you know, it's a customer advocacy tools. So part of the answer is we give them things to talk about, part of the answer is we train the leaders on how to run the session and part of the answer is we just you know, it's the care in the stick. We make it so that you can't get the badge if you don't go to the study group session. Yeah, not that, pikes, that makes a lot of sense. I like it. Now now coming back to a kind of thinking that now you are massed top building community. I mean you must have long quite a lot you guys have been successful. I'm sorry, is because you are relevant. I'm sorry, is because you always been trying to do things at all. It will be different. You mentioned doing a couple of acquisition of community to accelerate stuff. But if you were to speak to a young girl self, of yourself, let's say five, six, seven, ten years ago, all, someone who's just at the beginning of that carry and so look, you know, I'd love to build the community. I'd love to build something. I love to have people to share them and someone who's got the same inspiration and values. You know, what would be the DOS and don't that you would give them? would be the the main advice? That of trouble that you foot into. It's a lot of what I've said already and again, a lot of I don't I think it's simple. Some of the things I say I just don't think they're obvious or widely adopted. The thing I tell it's funny. I have a call later today right with a friend of mine who runs a marketing agency and he says, you know, I need you to be better at selling. What should I do? He wrote me an email how can I be a better seller, and I said, well, I don't. I don't have an opinion on that specifically, but in general my advice to almost everybody is the same, and the sounds. It sounds probably perhaps in authentic or artificial, and I'm just telling you that it's not, which is that my advice to everybody is...

...play a longer game and look for opportunities to help people. If you want to start a community, there has to be a reason the community exists beyond the fact that you want to be in charge of something and you want a community. Our reason is very clear. We are community exists not for its own sake. It exists because Katarina's a member and if she wants to be a CEO one day, we want to help her get there, and I wants to help operatics or any other company become the best possible company, we want to help her do that and that's why we exit. It's not for community, it's because we have there are human beings out there that are used to being treated like shit and we want to treat people well. There's we were all you know, you and me and everybody, since you know the Internet's what roughly like twenty two years old, right, roughly. It's obviously been around since earlier than that, but, like, we've all been using it roughly since like the end of since ninety nine, basically. Now we've been trained on on how to interact with each other and how things work in a specific way. That training is built on the business model of the Internet, and the business model the Internet is advertising. So the way that it works is that we use all these things for free and, as a consequence, we are our behavior, as we know, is the product. And the point is that we are used to like we're used to using linkedin. Right, if you had a job interview tomorrow and you wanted to get linked in to coach you on how to prepare for that job interview, what number would you call? Well, that question doesn't even make sense, right, it doesn't even that. It's a ridiculous statement. There's nobody at linked in to call. The linkedin is not we're not customers of Linkedin, we are users of Linkedin. So this is a long landed way of saying I am trying to teach people that there's a different way to behave and there's also a different expectation you can have as a customer right that our company works in a very specific way, which is you pay us and we do things for you and, as a consequence, our members are customers, they're not users. I don't call my members users. They're not users, their customers and I work for them. I work for Katerina, I work for all sixty two hundred people that are members of our community and all I want to do is help them succeed and grow. So my incentives are aligned. And also what I'm trying to do is teach people that you can have higher expectations for the companies that you pay money to, or attention to or your time to. You. So all that is to say, the advice I've give anybody is, what are your values? My values are I want to help people that I care about in respect, I'm not going to achieve their professional potential, which is really a way of saying I my goal is to teach people that by helping other people you can be personally successful. So you know, if my if I'm giving advice to my younger self or to anybody else, it's typically which is the advice I gave to my friend that I'm having a call with later today. Hey, look for opportunities to help people. The more people you help, the more people think of you as somebody that can help people, the more they come to you with problems, and that sounds to me like a powerful person right. The more people you help, your view...

...to somebody with power that can help people, and all of a sudden more people are coming and more people are doing things and all you have to do is start looking for opportunities to help other people. So that's very long whend it, you know, way of answering the question, but the shortest answer to the question is look for opportunities to help other people without asking for anything in return, and just take your time and over the course of years, many, many good things will happen to you. Yep, it's so true. He we I've seen that personny makes are so much something. Sometimes you just want to wait people and you do it not because you expecting something in retail, but just because you actually like the subject matter of the question or the topic. They come to you because they want your opinion and that's that's got you know, this is not the things you're like. Well, if someone comes and, as we may Ope, I feel good about it. Right then you want to give it to them without the expecting anything in return. You know what you end up doing and you say is a pretty special person. I think that sort of good to person is value. The day there is something, they won't even think about talking to your competition. They won't even think about, you know, doing an RFP or whatever. Then just know that you are there, you've been helping, you've been good, the advice were free and they were walking when they tried or whatever. So it does. It does actually make a lot of SIDS. I think you are completely right about the short term, long term, and and so was the the lecture. You you are from, Larry. It's it's so difficult to be in the long term sometimes potty, and I'm sure that part of your community you've got thousands of people who are like in the tech business, text start up, etc. Etc. You know, literally our future is next quarter. Even if for not a public company, we act like public companies and we need to sell, sell, selling. He's got to be not on the thirty first. If it happens on the first and not on the thirty first is not good enough. It's got to open one day be for twenty four. What does that change? You know, when week? What does that change? But you know, I guess we are evolving in that world and but as professionally agree with you, I think we need to go over or that and think about the longer term, the longer game and planning advent. So my last question for you really, Sam, is what do you have in struck, you know, for the future? What's the plan for the Sichhari? What you can share with us? Obviously I don't know show competitors will be listening, but do you have any exciting style that you are preparing for us? Well again. So, yeah, thank you for everything that you said. earlien and New Right. It is I have. I've been that CRO person. The deal has to come in today versus tomorrow, and the beautiful thing about this message is that I am building this company with these principles and we are and it is going very well. So that the beautiful thing is there's complete harmony, which is that, for example, my head of sales, who's responsible for signing up new people, she is not paid on commission at all. You know, most of the time of CRO is paid like fifty percent base salary fifty percent commission against the revenue target. My entire executive team is paid the same way and it's we're paid on NPS or paid on that promoter score. We're not paid on revenue, and I you know, maybe one day we'll move to be paying on different metrics, but this year to get your bonus we have to have an NPS...

...score on a trailing ninety day basis greater than fifty and then we have to be at seven thousand members. So that's like a revenue proxy. But Anyway, my point is that I think even in the venture capital startup world we are contorted and sometimes the best way to build the business is not to focus on pulling a deal today versus tomorrow. It's focusing on how do You de Light your customers. So at anyway. Also, you know, my competitors could be listening or not. I don't you know, we do everything pretty much out in the open. You still have to execute it and you still have to shore my values and if you don't believe what I believe, then you're not going to do as good job of it. And so, anyway, what does in store for us in the future? Well, as I mentioned, we are long. So Pavilion University will become bigger and bigger and bigger and we're going to have schools and graduate programs essentially for every functional area. So right now we have cro school, Cmo School, CECO school. Next year we'll have CFO school, probably have CEO School, and that's because we want to build communities in new functional areas. So right now I'm focused on CEOS and finance professionals. Next year, hopefully we'll get the finance community in the CEO Community, two really good places, and we can think about, you know, hr or people operations. We can think about product and engineering and maybe even some other functional areas. So new communities relatedly with new schools associated. That's a big part of what we're doing. We're about to launch our platform. You know, we don't. The funny thing about the company, which is, you know, been valued at, you know, a hundred million dollars, is that we don't have any of our own software yet. You know, it's on slack and zoom and Google Docs and Google sheets. But beginning on next week actually, we're going to start pushing out our own platform into our into a small group of users to test and to give us feedback. I think it's going to be fine. I don't think it'll be great, but I think over time it'll be great over next year and that platform will have a bunch of cool ideas. We want to really focus on gamification. We are it's not going to be a feed driven platform. It's not going to look like linked in or facebook, because our business model again doesn't I don't need audience engagement. What I need is people to feel like they know what to do. So it'll actually look a lot more like quick books, which is like, what do you want to do today? You want to run a report, you want to enter information. So you log in and we'll be goal oriented, outcome oriented. And then, finally, the last thing I will say is that, you know, we talked about helping people and helping people figure out, you know, their career, and I teach a class on framing your career. I ask the question how many people have a five year plan? And of course, the answers you know, virtually none. Right, like five percent. Most people don't have a plan or point of view on where they're going in their career. And so we want to actually build software that helps people first assess themselves and figure out what are their aptitudes, what are their strengths and weaknesses, in a more systematic way, and then build tools to help people figure out how they can map their career both visually and then, you know, analytically. So I you know, you can call that career Mapper, you could call...

...that, but it's skills assessment tools, it's career mapping and visualization tools, all underpinned by once you figure out where you want to go, will have learning and education that will help you get there and train you to get there. Once you're there, love it, love it, love it the last but if I'll all, Brootis, a kid did me. We putting the FELS building block together. I AIDS is killed Bays assessment for the deffrench roar. You know, if you want to become a manager, all what we what a the attributes you need to set trikes a transways music to my heirs, sons like well, doing the right things. Now, if anyone wants to join, by VIDEON, well, I wo do we, I'll do we get our lovely audience to join. I've got to fill few a stuff. You See, if woos and D's as what in my network so I'll get them. I'll get them to join when the time he's right. But how do we find you guys? I'm sure it's pretty straight fall out, but just you know, can you just yes, yeah, there's two programs. There's an individual program and that's you just go to join Pavilioncom and you click apply now, and there's three levels. If you're an executive meeting, you've the GVP, there's executive. If you're director above, there's associate. If you're new to the work course, there's analysts. So we've got a we've got a a level for you, regardless of where you are in your career. And also we have a corporate membership, which we call pavilion for teams. So if you want to sign up not just yourself, but you want all of your SDRs to take SDR acceleration school or sales school, then we have it's not and you get you get additional benefits and services as a corporate member. So you can join as a company and enroll many people at once or you can join just yourself by going to join pavilioncom on the foot. Well, thank you so much for you in sight. Today's I mean was a lovely conversation say, and that's to rigual to have you on this sho today. So thank you for having me and thanks to you and to Catarina from making it happen and and congrats on a great company and a great show. Thank you so much. You've been listening to be to be read a new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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