B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode 135 · 2 months ago

135: Cultural Considerations as You Enter New Markets

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Geographical expansion opens up a host of new opportunities, allowing you to tap into a new pool of both clients and talent. It’s a logical step for many businesses looking to grow and increase sales, as well as solidify brand awareness.

However, many people underestimate the impact cultural differences can have on business relations, both internal team members and external stakeholders.

Not only can this have an effect on the way you do business, but it can make it more difficult to protect company culture. It is important to strike a balance between incorporating the company's culture and respecting the customs of new territories.

In this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host Aurelien Mottier (Co-Founder and CEO at Operatix) sat down with David Wall (Founder & CEO at Unaterra).

They discuss the common mistakes companies make when setting up a business internationally, cultural differences to be aware of and how to respect them while still upholding the company culture.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

You were listening to be to be revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your entire go to market your organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your customer interactions, transform your organization into a revenue machine or unlock in reality and helping your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Lamtier and I'm here today with David Wall, founder and CEO at Unit Terr. How are you doing today, David? Thanks you have a good holiday. I was absolutely fantastic. Two weeks in Abisa with two kids, but my name in the swimming pool work came back, so tad. That's uh, yeah, really had a good time. But yeah, today, David, with you, so we had the conversation quite a lot about wow, I don't want to steal your offenders. You'll explain to audience what you do, but today we'll be speaking about cultural consideration as you enter on your market we are the importance of that and you've got to turn off expense. I think it's going to be a good exposure for audience. But, as I said, before we get into a topic, would you mind just giving a little bit of an introduition as to yourself, David, but also the company, your present Unitarraa and what you do? So My name is David Wall I'm the CEO of units era. We're a UK headquarters business. We have operations in in the UK, in the US and in Asia. Um, we've advised an excessive five CFOs F D S HR directors and they're wider management teams around setting up operations in international markets. We typically work with fast growth businesses that are in a hurry to grab new revenue and get stable operations, as I said, in the new international market. So our call service offering is advising around whether they need legal entities, Um, what kind of tax registrations they need to make in a particular country. We run international payroll, we have a fully outsourced international HR team and we also do the accounting and tax compliance. So effectively customers can run their front office, grow their sales and revenue and we take care of all the back office compliance. That's wonderful. A big, big pain that you remove from the from the clans, I'm sure, from your clients, Um. So, David, you've been helping a lot of these companies in developing internationally, especially from the HR front. But from your perspective, Western must common mistake that you've seen your clients making. Our prospect as are makings when setting up a business internationally. So it's a really good question, Ray, and you know we've we've supported customers in over a hundred countries probably, Um, over the course of unit terrorist history and we're operating about seventy countries today currently. So, as you can imagine, we've witnessed lots of different mistakes, errors, Um, interesting scenarios, Um, in supporting all these businesses. I think I think probably there's a couple of things that first one is a lack of appreciation of the international landscape. So what do I mean by that? So a lot of our customers are US headquartered, not exclusively, but a lot of them are. And when you look at if you just take the employment landscape in the UK and all the associated legislation and laws around employing people in the UK, and...

...then when you think. Okay, so that's complex in itself, and then you you move a couple of hours across the pond to France and the employment landscape is native degrees different and it's completely it's completely under a different set of rules, incredibly complex. And then you go an hour to the left and you've got Germany and it's the same again, and Spain. So so the complexity around going international is very real and the associated costs for getting it wrong are can be significant. So so that's one of the things that we we we we often see. You can't stereotype all companies and you know, and every business has a different risk profile too, an appetite to risk. But we were, as I said, we worked with a lot of US companies and they're they're in a hurry and I want to grab revenue and they're being driven by their investors or their CEO or their their leadership team to grow revenue and Um, we are often at pains to pull them back to to to make sure that they do understand the implications of hiring in an international market because, as I said, getting it wrong is expensive. So that's that's one area. Another area is is one size doesn't fit all you know and it ties into the point I made earlier around Um that you can't have a vanilla approach in terms of hiring. With a lot of customers we you know and a lot of the conversations that we have it's you know, we might be working with a UK customer and they want to go into eastern Europe somewhere, whether it be Poland or or Hungary, and they'll say, you know, can we use the UK important contracts? And the answer is what you can again, and you can't just use you can't have a cookie cutter approach to this kind of Um expansion project. It just doesn't work. I agree with you. I think there is an excitement around the boat table when we speak about geographical expansion. Um. There is a there is a difficulty. I think it goes both way. From my experience, right. So, our first geographical expansion was from the UK to North America, right, and I ended up with five years I R S investigation that we closed off successfully literally six months ago, right, simply because from we've not done anything wrong, we've not done any tax but we did not have the document in place. We didn't have the rights transfer, pricing information we had something, but he was very clumsy. It was a matter is the business was two years old start appear. We put that on the back of an envelope and we said what could with it? Or Trust me, when you deal with the I R S, going that tough man then and they are not really understandable, you know, they don't really make an effort to understand you and your presume guilty before you you do anything else. So you've you've got to fight to prove that you've not done anything wrong and provide lots of information. But that was extremely painful. And now that you're opening an office in Germany, as you know, like as we speak, transfer pricing is one of the first things we look at. You know, you learn from your mistake, but my finger still burning from the tires. I mean the emotion we went through through theodit was really painful. So I think that's one thing that you didn't mention. That it's also important. I know you had to train to brush very broadly on topics, but even tax implication, right, was tax?...

You know, you can set up an identity in Germany or identity in in eastern Europe and explain to pay no tax and just get all your taxes back in the UK or your text in the US. So you will have to make sure that you get things salted. I mean North America. We all know that you've got your copyright text, but then you've got the employee tax. That may differ from one step to the other. You also need to be aware of that because you need to deal with it. You need to be prepared and there is a great level of complexity and I think people, I think that it myself and thinking that it was good enough to do it on my own. Now we just we just just raise our hands. We speak to tax advisor, we speak to h our advisor, we've got local lawyers. The first thing you do is to set up a team around you, but you want to speak to local lawyers. You've got to, because you made a good point between the international market and the local complexity. And then the iron issue. Right. I could try, we could try, everybody could try to go and work with German resources with the UK employment contract, but the German being risked verse, your chances are for finding the right people with that sort of things is not great. You will probably get the people that won't get a job a new else they will accept the complexity. So you know, I think you've got to be very aware of all the other things that can happen. It's not just about visiting an office, sending a check, getting the keys, getting in, putting your stuff and your logo on the wall and if you go, but it's really about setting up the the operation properly, and then you've got to think about the relationship between that operation and the mother ship and how do that work, and that's what the tax advisor needs to come and you need to be smart. You need to make sure also as you pay tax wise due, which is another thing that people are discussing, because corporation tax has been better in the UKITY. Maybe any while it's in the world at the moment. Okay, that may change. It's wait for you for but all those things, from my perspective, are all the complexity. For me, I guess, the employment for being French and I've been studying you management of small businesses. So we've we've got HR and it's very funny because I was meeting with the lawyer two weeks ago in Germany to discuss the employment contract and the way to manage resources is completely different right. If someone lies during the interview process about something that they've done, you actually keep that on track. If that, if their contract said they only have one job, but at the weekend they do Google driving or the deliver pizzas or whatever, you may not just tell them and confront them on Monday morning. You keep that on track on five right. Why? Because the day you need to do something with them, you've got all this information about them basically breaching the contract that you can use against them. Because if it's very difficult. So it's a completely different market. In the US it's unemployer lets. If you are the employer, you are the king. You can you can say to someone you are sacked and they have to walk out, and there is literally pretty much no right. In France, is the employee that's got the power. In Germany, your employee got the power. And then when you get a company with more than twenties or two people, you've got to syndicate. People can create unions, and that's the thing that you need to really look at and that's why you can't do it with just your own desk research. There is not a website that we give your the information. There is not a book that we give your the information, because that's changing also all the time. So really getting is an organization like yourself, AH and hi expert, tax expert, luckily, that can speak to your tax expert in the UK, to your hi expert in the UK and let those groups organize each other. Is absolutely fundamental. So I do appreciate what you say, David. Yeah, just just talking through that scenario and thanks for sharing that right in terms of your own experience one of the Times. Back to the initial question, the one of the things that we find is typically the business is that we work with they'll either they'll either...

...have raised some money or they will be sat on money and they're going to invest it in a in a new market and they want to get there in a hurry. They but they they don't typically, and I'm not saying that this is the way to do it, but it ties into the point again. Normally, you know, the senior management attached to do with it, to to do an international expansion on top of their day job, and it's so complex that it's, you know, and time consuming that it just soaks up a lot of a lot of that time around the C suite. Yeah, again, the planning and the understanding around, whether it's attacks, whether it's the HR, whether it's, you know, to your point around when you settle that operation in North America or in Europe and electing that back to the mothership in terms of how you drive your culture and how you Um, you know, you your values are transposed onto those satellite or subsidiary operations. It's a really significant thing in terms of if you want to, you know, have a successful result and therefore investment is required, not necessarily financial investment, but emotional, emotional investment. You're is a good point, David, because you know that we speak about the technical side of things right, so that's the borrowing part from a perspective. But you know this is this is to be done. You know you've got to get the finance right. You need to know you're going to produce your accounts, was gonna set the accounts and you know, produce the numbers in in the country you are going and all that. Your contractor employment needs to be spot on as well. So all the sorts of things are important, but you just kind of touched onto the emotional and for me I would just almost connect emotional with culture because that's the other thing. People expect that everybody will do as the bunch of people who are working for the motorship are doing, but that's not the case. It's like landing on a new planet. You know, you've got people who've got different culture and you've got to appreciate that. It comes the question of how do you transport your culture from one place to the other? And before I tell you how we go about it, I'd like to know if you see, have you seen the culture issue being a big you know, everything is done perfectly across the team. Dot on the eyes. We've got the contract of employment, we've got the office, we've got the account and the tax, the HR people. Everything is nicely done. We are tight from a contract perspective. Say CFO is all over the moon with us, and now we start to get a team of Phive, six, seven people, but for some reason they're not really responding. So I'm not gonna ask you if you came across the scenario because I'm sure you because you'll get that little grill on your face. But what do you think is the biggest issue that people do is a culture? Keep asking you the same question about the biggest issue I think country is probably the second most important or the legal pace. So yeah, and look, culture is an enormous topic in itself and you know, very often, um it's it's an own it's a topic in its own right, whether it's, you know, a strategy point, whether it's operational, whether it's academic. And you know there's a couple of people, Keith Warburton and Patty McCarthy are two people that Spring to mind, that we know that all they do is focus on on this area, whereas for us, what we see is, you know, as a CEO of Unitarre, I see how we try to transpose our own, you know, mothership culture...

...onto the onto the onto our other subsidiary companies, but also obviously witness firsthand the trials and tribulations of our customers that are trying to Um, you know, make sure that there that their their their operations internationally is successful, and we don't see that the inner workings of that. So you know, it's really my own thoughts on on how unit tear our business and how we drive our culture and the type of things that we do. So for us, I think it's the starting point is is really understanding what what our values are and what our business is all about. Right. So, you know, in the UK we're part of a bigger group and we we are. We're on a journey and we're talking about, you know, taking pride in our work, contributing to customers succes, test game changing solutions. So that's all. That's all nice and good, Um, but you've got to live and breed it. And and I think from a leadership standpoint, the culture starts there, but it doesn't stop there. It can't. It can't be leadership going this is what I think, this is what we're going to do. Do it right. It's got to we're talking about human beings here that all get up in the morning. They all have their own different sets of challenges. They all Um, you know, inherently, I think human beings want to do well. So they need to be clear about Um, what is what is the overall vision? And particularly when you have operations internationally, it's very easy to forget the cultural piece. It's almost like these a metrics. This is what you need to deliver as part of you know, let's take operatics as an example, and culture gets forgotten. But if you're going to take people on the journey, and it is a journey and I want to put the question back on you in a minute because I'd love to know how you manage your, you know, your US team, because it's such a a big part of your team now. But yeah, it's so for me it's it's about being accessible, it's about so they understand what the overall vision is. It's about being accessible, it's about being really transparent between, you know, all of the employees. We have a very flat structure at unit terror. So, Um, you know, anybody can message me at any time, whether they're in Bristol in the UK or whether they're in New York. And that takes hard work. It's constantly evolving process and I think with culture ray it's not a work on it for one or two months and then put it in the top of put it in the top draw and forget about it. Constantly, constantly having to work on it, work on it, work on it, working it because operatics probably, like unit terror, like most businesses around the world, there is this movement of employees. So some people some some employees will stay a very long time. Some people decide. Actually, you know, I've decided to move on. So you're constantly having to educate and work harder, driving your values throughout the whole organization, and that is it's it's hard work and when you when you lay around all of the complexity of going international, which we talked about earlier in the core, it requires a huge amount of effort, not just from leadership but from everybody. I agree with you. I think it's Um. You're probably the name on yet for me, when you mentioned the consistency of it, Um simply because for me, you know, he's still I know we're all very smart people and all that, but there is still a little bit of an animal feeling in where we are and I believe that we've all in tribes. I...

...think, you know, there's people that we probably prefer the look of for the way they are than some other and that's coming from our education, is coming from lots of things. I do believe that, you know, we are read all the stuff about leadership and culture and also things, but I think that things are very more, you know, primal tribal, tribal than that. And you know that you've named the culture when the people in the team are self regulating the culture themselves. Right, we speak about a lot of things, the non negotiable, the values, the behaviors, blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah, but they all come back to one thing, which is setting up a group of rules. She's like, you know, the laws, the religions and stuff like that. You know, don't care because that's not cool. Don't share because it's not great. You know, all these sort of things. We have to put some rules that. Well, if you don't do it, there will be some consequences. Okay, and I think it's no really difficult, no more difficult than that. And what's difficult is to find the people, the core group of people that will be happy to be like a UH, a police player, like the captains, the team captains, someone would work the albums if I was on a football pitch and come and shout at me because I'm not moving my ass on the pitch right and tell me, look, if you don't do it, I'm gonna asked for you to be some because we so who is this kind of and we call that the leadership. For me, that's more like the Alpha type of the group and the people who really get it personally, when someone is not respecting the culture like you turn up at nine thirty when we supposed to that to start at nine. You want the team to self regulate that guy. You should not be a manager, you should be the team. You know, sending them the girls, looking at them and said, what's going on? This is not the way we work here. Yeah, it's a non negotiable what you're doing. You don't want to be part of that group. Well, if you don't want to be part of that group, WE'RE gonna self regulate you out of that group. You know, and that's the difficult bit. The difficult bit is how do you find people that are consistently fighting for the right values, that are constant? And I'm not. You know, it's difficult and that's one of our difficulty maybe sometimes in the US where our managers make your bad behavior but don't act on it. Well, what happened when you do that is that everybody look at the bad behavior and say that's okay, it's okay to be Sti mute late. You know, Bob didn't get any didn't get in trouble for that right and I think if I was in the office I would probably dress down bub a little bit. And that is old school. People don't like that and lots of boxation that do it and stuff, but I think there are things that you need to do behind behind closed door when it's, you know, personally work related, when it's attitude related, if it's attitude not ability related, or if it's attitude, I think there is part of it that needs to be addressed in front of the group. Yeah, it's like a pack of wold when you've but one that just go and stopped to buy the hair of the other one and everybody knows that. You know they don't. They've got to look up and you're sending a message to everyone and it's that repetition of the message with someone making a mistake. You've got the things. I even do something sometimes which is actually I've actually learned that, rightly or wrongly, from S Alex Ferguson. For people who are not in the UK, it was. It was the football coach of Manchester. I mean you must have been living on the rock to not know with Alex valution, but it was soccer for Manchester United, or football if you're European, and their coach for a long time and what you would do at all of time he would probably if the team is a big compleasant he will pick the best player on the pitch and give them absolute ships. So all the other one that are thinking Whoa David was the best player on the pitch and he's getting it proper. Everybody step up. I know it's bad, I know you're not supposed to do it. I know we may have a few glass door review that are not happy with that because you can't please everyone when you've got stronger people...

...working for you. But I think to your point, I think you the way we go about it. So you asked me about the how kind of went to the y and the sort of the sort process. But they how is that we will try to find someone. So, for example, here in the UK we've got the chance to have a guy. His name is will Taylor. Um is a good guy, good company boy, very close to the team, always want to do the right thing, really want to progress within operatics. We've got a good relationship with him. His heart is in the right place. You know, he's got to develop the abilities, but he's got everything. It's just we need to teach him the abilities and now he's got an opportunity of taking what he's done in the UK. So He's been running team in the UK to do it in Germany. Yeah, we're gonna transfer. He's a German native, right, so you can transfer that. But we've got someone that is a very bad payer. We aren't grooming but it gets you know what we do. We are not a bunch of account that operatics. There is a method, there is there is a very specific playbook for what we do. We constructort someone from the alten and expect them to manage a team. We've got to train them, we've got to enable them, we've got to spend time with them. But now you can take that and he knows the culture and trust me, you would not want to cross him because he probably would tell you right, because it's been told and it's been batter it's been part of that group where if someone leave the table early without asking you, they can leave the table. It's like, what are you doing? This is not good. We don't do that. We are polite with each other. We do this with that. So we've got that guy and that guy can be the first personal his mission is to find the pillars, the foundation that will be able to first forward two years be the winds in that of the space and so we can grow with them. So it's about finding people in the interview process and reporting on the value, or it in more on values, or you want the ability as well, but you would want value and core skills, if you will, and then developing these people because they've got the right value and they already believe in the value we want to push, which are, you know, we cat them behavior actually, because the world value is a bit I think. I find it a bit strange. Everybody's got their own st of value. But so we talk about professionalism, conscientiousness, resilience and accountability. Right. So that's the far key behavior. We want our leaders to have. An accountability is keeping the other accountable as much as yourself, and that, for us, is important. So answer your question, is ideally finding someone that is with us, that can relocate right the way we open up the US. My business partner at the time is not involving the business anymore, but my business partner at the time actually moved to North America. You know, he was there on the posit of the time. Okay, and you know it's how you got to start it, because you are there, you can really see what's going on and be in the trenches. I think lots of people just think that they're gonna do one local recruitment and I've did it so many times. Oh yeah, expansion in Apac or or expansion in the US or expansion in Germany, and really work out why. Why is the first man on the ground? Was Not good and every single time is the firstman on the ground because they don't have the culture. They don't get it. And if you can, and it's difficult because it's a commitment for people, but getting someone that you know, you can trust, that knows the value, is a good employee to go and then support them in building a teams. They can be surrounded by people that are smart, coachable but also have the right behaviors and understand the cultures through this behavior. But you don't need to tell them the culture. You've got an issue when you've got to say, well, our culture is is that? Yeah, it's it's got to come from them if they need to have the culture pretty much before they join.

Yes, most of the success stories. It's a really, really good point actually and it's not an obvious one to perhaps the listeners of of of this podcast, but certainly from my experience the companies that have relocated a senior leader from HQ to the new market. Now there is costs associate with that. You know, these visas, this, you know, if you know this, this children having to move schools, probing the wrong game, if the wrong gay. You'RE gonna have six months before you find out, eight months before you find out, because they will obviously tell you a fantastic story to get that job. And you know because are you don't understand, David. The market is different. Yeah, that's where we need to add out. Oh yeah, but your guys, you always have to sort of things where someone is afraid to tell you. In Germany is fundamentally different. Oh yeah, well, yeah. So, so what happenpens then? And to your point, where is Um? I think you said? Was it matt was a win win. Sorry. Yeah, so so will who will be going over to Germany? Like you said, he's lifting the operatics culture over to the German business. You avoid hiring individuals that are not you know, they haven't got operatics DNA in them, and you're not rolling that dice hoping for a six but getting a one. Yeah, so we've seen that a lot and it's it's very it's it's not always the case because you know, as I said earlier in the conversation, a lot of our customers are in a hurry and to relocate somebody takes time and that might not be a commodity that you that you have. It sounds like in your instance, you know it's thought through on this, probably because you've learned the mistakes of the US. You know, sometimes the stars just aligned. So he won't fully relocate to Germany, but in that in that particular scenario, Um, he happens to have his family living just outside of another. We're gonna Open the office in another twenty minutes away. He's gonna be able to see his parents more often, which he likes the idea of. But he's also got a girlfriend in in in the in the UK. So technically, you know, no kids at the moment. Just the situation will probably evolve over time, but at the moment no kids. A bit more freedom to take that sort of faction and do that sort of things and put that in the CV Um and the ability to go back to go back and forth. So we don't want him to be there and completely relocated. We probably will get a flat, but we will want him to spend a fir amount of time there and then we will change with other managers. We've got operation directors who are British or English or French or whatever that will also go to manage the teams. But we will try to always have a finger on the pulse down there. We always have some in the in the office, not because we want to big brother the people, but because we think it's first of all, is critical that they get to know the people and they manager on the leadership. And there is also something with culture thick. We don't speak enough about relationships. The people need to feel love. And how do you feel them? How do you make them feel love? What you make them feel love by going down and actually speaking to them and not speaking to them about work, but trying to attend under who they are. So that's something that we try to do a lot as the leadership team. Um, particularly in today's market with covid where you know I mean on Lincin, we try to do a party pretty much everymounts to get people together. Um, we're lucky. We've got lots of things to celebrate at the moment. But when we do these parties, we just breath. The leadership team and slogay is remember, we are not staying amongst each other. We're gonna go and speak to all the people that you've never met before. We're gonna go and introduce ourselves. If it is someone in the corner, this is difficult, right. If I have a work party in two thousand and eighteen, I've already know everybody in there.

This because I spent my life with them. So when I go there we've already got stories, I know stuff, we can pick up conversation that we are I can speak about football and stuff. If I'm the new guy coming from Manchester for my first event with Operatics, I may know a few people in my team, but there is literally seventies stranger in front of me. It's like going to a wedding or you just know your wife and a couple of friends. Right. You want people to make you feel comfortable. You want people to go around and introduce themselves to you and say, Hey, go and meet that guy and that guyls funny. You say that, have you met that guy? And you start to create this connection, right, and that's the thing that the role of leadership sometimes for culture. Another thing that I've seen is maybe leadership staying in the ivory tower. You can't do it without investing into it and you've got to invest in human capital and make them feel love, and that will go through actually having exchange with them. And I know that there is a certain size where you know if you've got five people, it's going to be difficult and you've got to do one. Too many want to feel but I think it's important to have some sort of connection with the people. It sounds like we're we're both lovers of Alex Ferguston, but I was listening to a podcast. Me Get up to direct now that that's that's me. So I was listening to a podcast this morning from about so it was diary of the CEO and it was Gary Neville and he was talking about what Alex Ferguson did. Well, right, and he would treat Um, he would, he would treat the lady in the laundry room, yeah, or the lady that makes the teas and coffees in the in the restaurant the same as he would the striker that he just paid fifty million four. Yeah, and if and and and, if he ever saw you know people who were perceived to be lower in the food chain being called out by the stars. He would stamp on that and I know that might seem like old school, but I think to your point about everybody needs to be on the bus and everybody needs to feel that they have a value in terms of the journey. And there's the CEO and the leadership, you know, those, those conversations with those new people that have started and making them feel part of the unit terror or operatics journey. Whilst it's all time and it's all you know, Um, you could be you could be telling stories with the colleagues that have been there for, you know, since the time invested in those New People is absolutely critical. To my point at the beginning of the conversation, it's never ending this. It's an evolving process of taking people on the journey. I agree with you. The thing was the staff is critical. You know, I just make a point. Australian the US, you know you've got you've got the office clean out coming in the evening and I was in the US. Obviously nobody's Ye know, to them. Likely they don't mind them, they don't do anything wrong to them, but they don't really interact with them. So I went to speak to them and say hello and thank you so much for keeping the office clean. I just wanted to know if there is anything we could do better. Do you think we are messy? And I appreciate your job. When I started in the UK my first job was cleaning office in the morning, so I spoke to them about that's looking particulate the toilets and stuff. She's annoying me when people, you know, treat the office space like and I can leave my mudther someone would just clean it for me. Would you do that at them now? You want Um so and and you know it's a very small percentage of the population, but I think doing that sort of things and people ask you us, well, that was very nice what you've done. It's not nice, it's normal. They are part of the team, right, and if you are nice to them, your desk maybe a little bit cleaner when someone else's desk. We used to live like. I used to live like anvilment. To be fair, it's easier for me because I used to do of his cleaning. So I've been doing that and my mom, you know, when I grew up she was cleaning other people else. That's what our job so, you know, probably get a little bit more an emotional connection,...

...but you know, living an envelope for Christmas with a little card and like a ten pound note saying thank you so much for, you know, cleaning all my crap or you're along. Really appreciate you have a great Christmas. Right. That's probably makes that person day massively right and I think this is really the things that I'm missing. We all speak about Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah Blah, the techniques and dad and all the stuff, but just forget to just actually be kind with people. You know, do sect of kindness. is also what we have the team to do amongst each other and say you pick up the people, don't wait for your manager to go and introduce that person. We want people and will naturally welcome the new starter. Make them feel good, introduce them to people, show them the ropes and be kind, because you know, that's just the type of environment. You can create all culture you want, but if people are really king with each other, I think that's really what you got. You nail it on yeah, then you've got a good group. And I think when you've got the ability to be physically in the same location. It's a lot easier. But I have to think. Ray. I'll give you an example of you know, so if I'm if if I wake up, and so as a CEO you have to get used to waking up and normally having some bad news in the inbox in the morning. That's just life as a CEO, right. So the easy thing to do is to fire off emails to hear whoever it is and say, why is this happen? Why is that happen? What's going on here? What's doing on that? When you've got when you and that's that. I have to temper that. Just in the UK business, okay, because I'm trying to mature as a CEO. Managed the communication, thinking about the impact of that individual when they get up in the morning and they get that email, that is shifting. Okay, when you transpose that to the states or Asia, they're not in that room, they they're not physically in the same office as you and that ruins that day potentially, particularly if they don't know what you are to tep down, you know, because I think it's okay to have communication with people and tell them what they do. I mean this is the concept of radical candle. But I think with most of my leadership team, what I think. I'm glad we we we've achieved this. We're gonna have some very honest conversation. We can call out each other because we need to do it because there is something going wrong and it needs to be sorted now, and we are we are professional and we need to do it properly, but at the same time, you know, we'll take a bullet for each other. You know, I think it goes both way. I think you can be you can be direct with people, but at the same time you need to make sure that in a situation you protect them when they need to be protected. So it's kind of the usual thing. If someone is down because they've got some stuff, you probably don't want to send them the emails. So it's kind of knowing where everybody's are at in them in some of their head and yes, kind of the management on the one by one basis really, but I think sometimes also people do need that sort of getting in the morning and reading that email and it just wiped them up. But it's a balance. There's a balance, isn't there? It's getting that balance right and it's about getting your timing right and you will never get it right, you know. So that's the thing. It's just sometimes people focus on one action, but sometimes you do one action because you want to have one reaction and that's one reaction will go to the rest of the team. Some of it is in what you should not do is to try to transpose your problem on someone else. You've got to always be called bloodied before you using that email. And you either want to start a little bit of a war, you want to you want to light a bomb or something. But it's got to be intentional, not emotional. If...

...you do it emotionally because you're like look, I'm not gonna deal with that, I'm gonna make it someone else problem, I don't think that's good. I think if you are doing for the purpose of coaching an individual and make them feel something that you think will let them in the coaching journey, it's fine. It's okay that they don't like you, for they or two. They'll come around and you sometimes have argument with people and you know, we we we needed they are two. We don't speak much. It's it's really bizarre, very childish in a way, but we don't speak much, but we need to think and then we come and always usual things. Look, I should not have reacted like that. Look, my phone was terrible, but the content I still believe. Yeah, okay, this, that right. We're good. Of course we're good. I don't know why your heart is yeah, I know about that, and you know what actually quite and then we all progress from it and then we will make you the good things two days later, because it's a difficult science. I think you know the people around you, and that's coming back to the point. Is that if you just get someone brand new that you don't know, that don't know you, that don't know you're on a personal level, that don't know yet, that you would take a bullet for them, that don't not yet that you will protect them under whatever circumstances, that don't really understand your manager, your style, that's why your bravely. I add that with with we we recruit the US GM last year, and I think it's just say that I was being a pain because I was managing him like the rest of the team who knew me and know the way that I am, and and I think if I've made some mistake with him, Um and, but you know, you know right, as you said. You know, it's about trying to be a better CEO every day, trying to be a better passing every day. In the process you're gonna ADK some people, you're gonna make some more fantastically, you know, progress and create a bit of legacy in their life and all that. And Yeah, so balance really and if I listened to you, if I think about summarizing the this part of the conversation, so operatics. Obviously UK headquartered large operation in the US and now you're about to embark on Germany, operations in Germany. Think a pro probably we want we want to be a scale up now. So we want to finish something before we start something else. So we want to be complete or finisher. So we're gonna get the German office, get a few people in there and get our foundation right and then we moved to a back but we need to do a back so and those foundations right. If you think about the lessons that you've learned lifting somebody from another ship into new market, that's one lesson. Second lesson is getting the right professional advice so you avoid I R S issues. Oh Yeah, do that, avoid the R S. Yeah, anymore. Um, yeah, I'd say. I'd say the creating a car team. Luckily so trying to recruit people change the way you would recruit people, because I think if you've got a big group, you may not need to have people who fully have all the values because they will integrate and will be regulated by the rest of the group. However, for a project like the German project, we probably want our five first recruits to have the value that we've got intrastic. We want them to have them internally. We don't want them to teach them, we don't want so. We want them to really shows when we piled the onion, that they've got all the right values. So there will be naturals in this value. So then don't it matters n less if you've got five of the score people. It will be seen as the founder's member. If you will have operative Germany and probably the managers of the future when you bring another turn on top of that, values again is less because these guys will regulate. So I think creating your car team spending up a bit more time at the outset, and I think the last thing is do not act under time pressure. You know, you mentioned that your clients call you when it's too late and stuff. You should not be pressured to do anything. Um, I know it's easier said than done, but you've got to plan right. If you've got to do it, you've got to...

...plan and and and news companies like you guys. You know there is professional out there is that job. They can take it away from you. And I know that you probably obviously cost a little bit of money, but do you really cost more than messing it up? Do you really cost more than mere recruiting stree gays in one country and nine months later realizing that down on the right people? Particularly if I'm a tech company in the investments you put in would be massive. If you've got to law suits in Germany because you don't follow the Hur Procedure Right, I am sure that you get your money back. So just just doing the right things and being set up properly. First of all, we'll help you to attract talents so as I get your right advice said properly and show if you go to Germany, which is my case, I want to show to the German people have come from interview that we mean it, we mean to open in Germany. We choose it. We want to be there and I want there. I want them to be part of the German team, and then we're gonna get them to because you get the US team and we've got all sorts of things where we are finding people can kicking Sarch us, but you've got to minute, don't do it for for the wrong reason. You've you've got to really need it and be doubt. I think that's that's the overriding message for me. If, if you know the as a leadership group, you have to the focus is always on revenue, Um, and culture is a is a is a hot topic at HQ, but to build a really successful international business you have to focus on culture day in, day out and it needs to be part of the DNA and it cannot be, you know, just left to chance. I agree with you. So thanks for all the insights, David. Unfortunately we get into to the end of our recording time there, um, but it was it was super good to have you on the show, you know, to learn more about terror. I'll let you turn the table. It'll bit around. I saw that coming. You know, you're asking me a lot tough questions and I was US coming with all my sorts as well. So, to be fair, I am it was a great conversation. If any of ours that are looking for an international expansion, they want some support, they would like to find a company that can actually help them to navigate through all the crap and get the things right. But my email is David Unitara dot io or they can find it on Linkedin at David Wall my mobile numbers on on my linkedin page. But whereas, it was great to have you on the show, so thank you very much for today. All Right, thanks, Ray.

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