B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 11 months ago

121: The Beginner’s Guide to Sales Gamification w/ Brian Trautschold


Gamification is more than a buzzword.

It’s a proven way to motivate, revitalize, and inspire your team to great results. In sales, gamified initiatives can have ripple effects that reach every corner of your company.

With strategic implementation, consistency, and intentional connection, you can build a system that recognizes accomplishments and rewards through personalized incentives.

To paint a more detailed picture of gamification, we had Brian Trautschold, Co-founder & COO at Ambition, on the show to discuss the approach of making work fun without losing productivity.

We covered the benefits of gamification, ways to track team accomplishments, personalizing incentives, and more.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

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I do really think that if we show people the metrics that matter, if we alert them to keep them aware of the things that will lead them to be more successful, that helps everyone. You are listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's get into the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Adam with yer and I'm here today with Brian Trug should confounder and chief operating officer at ambition. Are we doing today? Brain, I'm doing excellent. How are you right? Yeah, very good. Thank you very good. Like a Monday in the U case, little bit gray, but you know, we passed all the winter ice night at three PM, so it's three hundred and six PM. Man Kind of sent you out there, so that's pretty cool. So today we is you, Brian. We will be spooky speaking about gemmification. Out to introduce gammification into your sales team and and how can you benefit from it? But before we get started, would you mind giving us a little bit of background as to who you are yourself and who is your company? Ambition Yeah, well, I'm one of the founders of ambition. I'm currently the CEO. Yeah, this has been an awesome journey for me. Like you said, we are a company that provides sales performance management software. We're trying to help revenue teams get the most out of their reps. there people in whether that's customer facing sales, because for our success, accle management and ultimately have those people enjoy their experience more. And so how I got to start this company, and the inspiration was we were all sellers as well. We kind of graduated college, appendment to the workforce basically during the two thousand and eight financial crisis. So we had big dreams of what we were going to be and in my case, I ended up doing inside sales for a global technology company, and what I found is that the way that they manage their teams, the way that they instead of as people, how they organized, you know, it didn't feel modern, it didn't feel like it resonated with a lot of the young people like myself, and so for the last eight years we've been trying to solve that and the deeper we get into the space, the more opportunities and challenges we uncover. That really impact how salespeople go about their day, how managers go about their day and how they feel about the work they do. Yeah, so do you do? You sort of thinkas focus, you'll send on insight sens and be the eyes dals with you. You open up to the rest of the on this hars function. We we open up across the sales function. We really think about teams that have clearly defined metrics, the clear clearly the fine process. That's obviously something that's useful in terms of how you track, measure manage those expectations. We started certainly more focused on inside sales or even some cases like sales development and high velocity rolls. But what's interesting is over the last two years, especially as we've all become remote workers or, you know, work from home cultures, it's kind of, I would say, it's brought everyone to a similar function. Everyone is really focused on, you know, performance metrics, on...

...checking people's pacing, making sure that folks have awareness to what's happening across the organization and so whereas you know, maybe two or three years ago someone would say, well, my enterprise sellers, that's an art, they're doing whatever they do. I'm not going to mess with their Mojo or their process. Now they kind of want to see how it's working and how effective it is and what type of whether it's weekly monthly, metrics, they're doing and how they're performing to them, of course. And you focus on the specific industry because, again, you mentioned you stop to your carry in the tech space, software space, the ease. That's really well, you guys at ambition, are puts in order of you. I thought of you open up to us a voute courts as well. Yeah, we're focus on more verticals. Actually, our first customer was in logistics. Logistics is, you know sometimes now and with all the supply training crisises around the world, it's maybe in the forefront of our minds, but seven, eight years ago, is kind of behind the scenes and we started there. We had an amazing customer that had really an incredible culture that they were managing and measuring almost exclusively on Pad and paper and Excel, all manual, and we digitize that. We brought that into a real time virtual world. And so, you know, we serve logistics, baking and finance, mortgage insurance, obviously, tech and software and even things like you know, people we call them industrial. But sometimes those companies are are really interesting chart because they're typically less tecum label than someone who's inside for its getting continually been down by a sales pitches and people in alcohalector to get their their business. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we we can feel at the mean there is definitely a big searche of SDR Videa, of sels development function in the in the technology space, and part scary is the lack of covid and pund the mix and stuff like that and events that being available to act. And you need to have new means to generate leads and and obviously one of the common things that people turn to his bed as there. So we've seen a massive search in a in the BTB technology space, in the B to be selftware space. But let's get into the conversation. I've got a few more question about it. Still as an interesting to pick to see how we can rechivate sales people. But gemmification rights bit of a buzz word. It means lots of things. I've seen lots of people pitching us about gammification and saying how they could bring easy could bring that, and you know, some of it is really is actually very fun and it's actually not really related to commissions or money or a monetary kind of a monetary element that you would get as part of performing well. Some other are you know, they could themselves gamification, but I don't really know if it's gamification. Is More like a point system. It's kind of a little about type of things and there is really, you know, for give me, to win something into have challenging and he's to be a little bit more's a bit of a bus. Well, I think lots of people have different point of view about it, but let's say that we've got someone who's completely new to it, to the today. They don't do enough get euscation. They may have all the bodies, they've not meant the vent all have met. They don't done it in Yale space, they don't really have an opinion...

...and they being the death serms flow is already a good pitch to deve environment. Okay, so I would introducing gamification would benefit that team and that business. Yeah, that's a great that's a great setup, right, because I think a lot of more customers are more companies than we would you know, then we would we would actually guess out of the gate don't know what gamification is like. It is a total new thing and even though maybe in our space and in technology or maybe you know fast moving companies, is something that we're aware of or thinking about, they just think about how is my person doing to quota untament like wills there? Are they on track for their commission plan? And that's enough gammification for them. Right like that, they're doing you nection, that they have a competitive salespore. I think what's interesting as we got into this space, we started to build our platform. You know, we were competing against people who are writing their numbers on a white board or who are posting, you know, sales rep of the week by the coffee machine, and so that's really organic, like that's classic sales. That's in you know, every you know all of the maximums about our customers. I think what's interesting is over the last couple of years people have become much more scientific, as the way a lot of people describe that. But they're trying to have, you know, really streamline revenue operations. They're trying to be very smart about how they build sales ops and go to market operations and using data and visibility to data to change behavior, and I think that's one of the things that we in our space, and I mean will talk about our product, but we really believe is going to have an impact on reps. you know, like I said, if we went into an industrial company or a fortune five hundred company for five years ago and are trying to educate them about ambition, they would say listen, Brian, we are our team has, you know, quota plan. They understand how the commission plan works, they know how to hit it and everything else. They just need to go get it done and if they don't, they're not going to be here. If they do, we're going to reward them. Well, that's ends up happening is whether you're looking at that quarterly or, more likely, annually, everything's in the rearview mirror. It's all or it's already in the past. And what you want in a kind of forward thinking sales organizations you want to be looking out the windshield trying to understand how can you impact behavior so that people will hit it and and you know that's whether it's their sales process or how they are their leads come into their funnel and then what they do with those leads. There's a whole series of conversion rates, right, and activities you do against those leads. You all know this very, very well. You want to track the measure, all those things, and so alsimily we think about how do you stack up a series of you know, awareness about that, whether it's pure competition points, leaderboards, whatever, like. The execution of it has to fit into the business and the culture of that workforce. But but we see that changing a lot. I mean, I'm a Pelton writer around pelts on every day scaryfication right there. It's everywhere right, like I can'tnot see it. I use, you know, my Delta, my airline points, like. Yeah, I'm continually being, you know,...

...notified and alerted and and I act on those things. And so I think there's a yeah, I think there's a difference between the gaming side or, like you know, we're going to make I don't believe in making work a game. But I do I do really think that if we show people the metrics that matter, if we alert them to keep them aware of the things that will lead them to be more successful, that helps everyone. That raises that raises the baseline for everyone and it gives them, I think, more autonomy to make good decisions as a sales RAPP board, account manager or whatever. Yeah, I could not agreement with you the you've got put it on. So I though, I don't have a puntone because I've got to Jimne trly tend meutes down the road. But add Jim. They give you like an out rate money too, so something that you put around the up chest and you good. They've got station lays, which I like super out causation, while you run the way that you punch stuff, except for etc. And God did that make me competitive, because if I'm wearying that stuff, I want to build the musclar in the room. I want to be in the red will than all the other guys in the room. I want to try all the I want to be you know, and it's maybe needs a bit silly, but you know, I think and to take kind of energy. One of the facts I want you to mention to use through what you are saying. We are trying to implement ification right now and we've had a few tries and we had eaten. Miss I believe that you recognize performance through commission plan. Okay, your courage, behavior through gammification. Okay, someone trying hard and not eating the commission needs to feel good about doing the right things and trying out gammification. It okay. So you can really turn with gamification. This is what we like about it. You could almost turn what technically is a down for the SDRVIDEA, something that we just kill them, Modo killed, that would want them to go outside and walk for five days, because that the other bit of projection or whatever, into a positive. Okay, doing things like you know, I don't know. Let's say you get hundred dollars, commission, for each meeting that you book, a demode that you book or whatever. It is. All right, I need to speak to an average. You to speak to let's say five people to get one demo. Okay. So technically, would what you what we try to Refraine is like what? Look, that's really good in the gamification systems that know, is twenty dollar in your pocket. You need to have another four to get one to say yes. So that's okay, you just made twenty dollar by getting a note. Move on and get the next one or get a yes. And as a sort of things that we as you said, it's you use spellit and you don't want to you we probably won't never see you, you know, on the tour the France and that of things. But you all, what grammification can help you to do is to compete in your league, and I think that's really important because when you've got to large cells team like we've got over two hundred and twenty tword and salts.

You we using count now of the ASDAVIDEA, not everybody is equal. I can't compel someone who's been with us for three years. We knows business inside out with those our clients, the market inside out. There's as a new be that got all the right skill but it's just a little bit wet behind the heels and it's, you know, six months expresses. You impel them, but often the new be will try to look up to those guys and compare themselves to them. So it's about also creating the subcategories for us where everybody at their stage can can kind of compete with people at their level, and that's what we're trying to were trying to walk and find the right formula on at the moment, because it's why you got to be careful, because we know defining leagues almost is it can leak to people, can lead to people thinking that, you know, there is a little bit of unfairness in the process. But going back to my question, my line of of question for today, you know, for the people who are using gemmification. So let's say you've got companies like us that have been doing a little bit of it. We've done a bit on our own, and I like the FID that you speak about. White Body, an employee of the months and Hey, we've done at all. Guilty. What are the method that you think are working the best in time of gammification? We have is done an insentive. That is my effective another or challenge. That is my faith terms. That would you see, walkie, what's cool at the moment? Yeah, well, that's a great question. You know, I think I would take it back because I think, and I try to do this on podcast or even in sales calls, like it's less about what's the incentive, it's experiences. I'd say, like if you're if you're going to spend money on employees, I'll bring my rule. Then do things that they're going to remember. I think that oftentimes, if you can give or gift or or award people something that is experiential. That could be as as Nice as, you know, a dinner with their partner, it could be a trip there will they will remember that. They'll internalize that differently than here's a two hundred fifty hour Amazon Gift Card or whatever. That's that's harder, that's more work, that's more mental energy. I think the bigger thing from a concept side, that I think every company could be better at is you kind of mentioned it with like the metrics that you actually care about. How do you turn a negative of getting a rejection into something that kind of builds a back up so they don't have to go take that walk because they feel bad? They're like that happens, part of part of playing whatever sport you play. If you play soccer, you miss shots, shots are off. You know they go off the post, so that you missed a frame. Like it's okay, so you have to take more shots to get back in the game. You know you've gone to got to just think about it and get that in your mind. You've got to go back. You've good, Muzzumi, doubt right. It's part of the process. Right, it's just going to happen. If you take enough shots will miss some. I think the thing that every organization could do is zoom out. Zoom out and understand, okay, here's what, here's the end result I want. I want this result from my sales route, my BDR whatever. Well, how do I break that into monthly...

...or weekly or quarterly smaller sections? And so now I can give them some small periodic guidepost that we can build feedback off of and then zoom at one level, one level further back, and say to hit those guy posts or hit those benchmarks where they need to do daily or weekly. And if you can do that and you kind of build up this this framework of measurements, now you can continually have really good, positive feedback things. Because you know, if the commission plan is the end all be all, which is great, the ascent of INCINDEM's all have to be aligned. Well, how do you give them the most feedback like that that also are on your that you're wearing at the gym? How do you know if you're doing while or not? continuate, because, like, you want to have that that feedback to be quick, you want it to be present available, and so I think that those are the mindset that a leader of sales or revenue leader, a sales ops person should be thinking about so that the last thing you want, and it's still extremely common, is day and day out a sales rep is making calls, doing demos, whatever. They don't really know if they're doing will or not. They're kind of like, you know, I hope this deal closes because I'm getting paid on that deal. But they need to be, you know, having better awareness to their better insight to how they're doing. I don't think that's reportable almost everywhere. I haven't seen a sales process where you can where you can't kind of zoom out and understand the whole as well. Yeah, it's what we've seen and what we try to do also is to one of one of our big problem is it's always a prime you know in the cells team, you you running sell, Steve, and the feedback is are there is not enough training. As well, we can be successful and you put all the training and nobody's using it and nobody gets on it. And I have a nice too long now. Shall I come on? So there's no you know, it's always a it's never good or body's always it's always a good excuse to that. Not Complain, as I should not use that sort of us very negetive, but it's a bit. It's a bit like it's difficult to get it right and and what we like, and we've been using a linkedin learning a fair amount. And they do that as what you've got badges, you know, you could put stuff you've got face, you win things, you've got budges, you level up and I think it's some fears is working one. And the point I'm trying to make that you almost to take your analogy of spot. You almost want to also recognize and do gammification when people are training, not just what they're playing the game in front of Fiftyzero people, okay, with huge. So it's about you know, because lots of people don't do that. They just think they can win it or whatever. So how do you actually get them to through Gemmification, give them a reward for doing all place that nobody wants to do? Is absolutely horrible to the role play with your colleague, but it's kind of important if you are new. It's so cool. Nobody like it. So you know, it's almost like, in a ways, how do you make the things that nobody wants to do a little bit more fund through Gemmification.

But one question that I've got for you, because we found it even more complex. So gamification, no white but employee of the months on the coffemeational a sort of great stuff, as you mentioned. That was pretty cool when everybody was in the office. Okay, now we've got people absolutely everywhere, and and that's as to impact, I think, on what we are doing and what we are rethinking. Number one, sometimes we are not seeing the right attitude anymore. What's the right attitude? Is the right attitude someone banging stround Red Chords a day or sending thousands email a day? Maybe nuts. That's maybe not doing the right thing. Okay, so how do we see what they are doing? You know, if you have a team of ten people and you are sitting at the end of that De's can you see them all day? You can pretty much give them points, but do things physically that and and he's reads you really easy, right, but when they are two, we found it very difficult. So I guess the question that I've got for you is a two sided question. Number one is our you guys, you know, adapt it to that walk from type of mentality which is slightly different from SDR BDA because usually we put them in in the same room. And number two is, do you have any fologians? You have any that recommendition in time of software or cloud sus model that people could use? So only you keep truck of the stats and the Gamification, but also, you know, you can communicate with people as too. Is winning what with what's happening, and so yeah, it's very it's a mouthful of a question, but you hit on. I think you basically described the challenge that that we seek out for with the prospect or customer like that is. That is why you need a losing your we were, we sold so much to organizations that had that. Everyone in the same room, TV's on the wall, scoreboards everywhere like that. Was Our customer three years ago and we were lucky that we built all of these tools for remote work before that. But it's the best thing that happens to our business ever, was that all those people, like you said, we're everywhere. They're working from home or they're working from like cat, who we talked to the beginning, to call working for either skiing somewhere like that is the doesn't don't say that brand now the next thing is that all them praise of operatics were something like. Imagine stuff. So iis cat's walking from the shops. You know all of this. Sorry again, that's especial treatment because catch shift Tonqu possitive. I'll target less jail. So that's fine. There you go. That's that's good gamification. That's great. Like that's it. There you guys. That's rewarding the right things. I think you need a system in place that you can set specific goals with specific timelines and measures and provide accountability. You know, I think we talked a lot about rewards recognition in sentives. Part of it is just accountability. You know, are you are you putting in the right amount of training hours, like you said, are you doing the things that will make you a good seller, service person, support person, whatever? Because you...

...mentioned the crux of it is, and this is why we've spent two or three years of our Product Really Building on our coaching suite, because it's about effectiveness more than it's just more than about, you know, productivity. When I say productivity, I mean more and more and more and more and more. There's a top end of where more is no longer good, like you said, if someone needs to make three hundred calls a day, that's probably means they're not very effective on the cause that they're making. There's probably a good sweet spot in there where they're making good calls, having high quality conversations to the right type of lead, and so you want to measure that effectiveness and I think ultimately what we what we strive for, you know, to go back to part of that question, is providing a system that that puts the right insights about performance, whether there's productivity, effectiveness, consistency, quality, into the hands or or surfacing them to the right person the right time. Sometimes that's the Rep. sometimes the rep just needs to know your off track. Sometimes it's their man the journeys to know they did something amazing or they made some help, some training. Sometimes it's the CEO and you're like, Hey, to use cat can. Just did this incredible deal or really did this thing that's far the way outside the normal. So you so let's make sure that Raino so that he can send a message or give her a call and say, Hey, I just saw this is incredible. Like those are the things that become you need a system to do that because you don't have time. I don't have time. distancy as well. I mean you can do it. We try to do it, but being consistent at it. Yeah, and evening. If you start to do it and the information is not flowing consistently, then you'd have John. That feels fantastic because at the last all ends meeting he had a little mentioned about him. All his friends were looking at him in the office and get up clapping and stuff. You know where they are on mute. But Pamela next months that did exactly some stuff, if not better. But the information got didn't get to me on the side EADS and they're like right, where am I not getting a mention? That's a great and you absolutely killed dom jo when you that. And it's difficult because there is an expectation someone from sometimes from staff and and he's fair. I have him. We see we should know about everything, but technically, if you're the CEEO of a company or if you're that, you should know absolutely everything, and you should. It's impossible. It's constable. You can't get all the information. You don't know the performance of all the people and it also dependunty, you've got some teams for the manager is really vocal about the people you've know. Someone's else teams for down. Let's vocal. So it's about getting that consistency. So I do agree with you at editing a platform that and to get the consistency the information flowing so everybody streets. D quality is very important, because you thought, he's not a game. You know, if you a treaty good in the Games. It's not fair. You just built guy. Yeah, it goes bad because it goes Beta. And so how do you do that? So do you pro...

...gets your and systems? I'd like to also a little bit more about yeah, feature cougs the Bakens. Yeah, I was well, I was trying to. Yeah, didn't know how deep want to go into it, but yeah, so we're sinking directly with this drm. So in most cases that's that salesports or similar diet Microsoft inamics. So we're pulling in not just the end results, which could be close one deals or revenue. We're sinking with acceleration tools. That could be everything from you know, the telephony system, like how they make the calls, or or outreach or sales lock or some of these great tools that help you kind of do more automated cadences. You know, conversation intelligence, remn intelligence training as a huge integration for us now with folks like signs make or lesson latey or high spot. So getting awareness to all of the things these these teams are doing, these revenue facing teams or customer facing teams. So then you get a three hundred and sixty degree view of all the things that are happening and you can create that those expectations, the accountability of what do you expect from these people? You probably expect a whole series of metrics and the manager feels empowered because you know, ignore ambition. If you're a manager, you've got sales force, you've got probably Tableau, you've got outreach, you've got a lessonly, you've got gone. Now you've got six systems and you're like, where am I supposed to look to find out how many people are doing? But I look at you know, I'm probably looking at one thing because I don't have time to look at all, but I'm probably just going to look at how many deals they close. One selles force and that's the only thing I pay attention to. You need a system that brings it all together and ends up giving you context to are they doing well versus their goals? Are they doing well to their peers goals? You talked about it before. You've got a whole organization that's really a bell curve from super experienced effective people to new people trying hard, to people who maybe actually not very effective and need to be trained. They need context of that and it's very difficult for a manager or a sales leader to to crystallize all that. So that we give them a system. We're point the data that were manipulating it so they can see that performance, and then we're sending alerts out when when things are on schedule, off schedule, on target, and then we give them tools to go, you know, create an employee of the month type thing or create a special instent of our competition around very intentional metrics that they want to drive behavior toward. So ultimately we give them awareness and then we give them levers to pull to change behavior. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Some of that. Don't want to come back on quickly because I think you really need something that was interesting is the two hundred dollars and Votua. You know, I think there is nothing worse and a non personal gift. You know, like I don't care what you done. Something kind of okay, but I can't be bother up to get to know you. I can't be both up to kind of know what put what's Rock your board. So here is something and go andknock yourself phnamazon, because you know you can buy some tooth brush or whatever you want that cry.

How much of that you think is important in the process? Because this is what I think makes from my perspective, that the that personalization and it's difficult right in. The bigger the team that the more difficult it is. But trying to find something that will be meaningful for the people, to create the smell the moments, because I like your sort process you spoke about, you know, that the meaningful and then create this moments thing that they can remember and create a sort of like emotional that that emotional tie is with the company. So is that something that you get, is walk on with your system? I mean you have like different type of things that you offer to people. I mean do you support your client in personalizing, because that's stuff as well. Yeah, that's really tough, I'll be honest with you. That by integration. So we don't end up being the redemption of that. I think that that's ultimately on the manager. And then what you're talking about, the is really key in terms of when you are delivering rewards or instead it was, because we talk about this all the time and there's there's really good research on this. Reps or employees often leave a manager. They're typically not leaving the company. So if the if the relationship between the manager and the individuals that great or is broken, that's when they leave and it's it is challenging and it's a continual thing that I think managers have to get better on of. You know what motivates right? What motivates cat? Is it? Is it skime? Is it time off? Is it, you know, the ability to, you know, jump off work at three hours? What? You know, whatever. Yeah, well, I could be a I could be you could be lots of things. I grow with your it's just it does depend so much from people who have some people would probably would love to have a meeting Star restaurant experience. someons I would want to go in any cupital of our London. Some of the I would want to go to a best ket board game to see the Mavericks, hopefully winning against someone in the elent trip for you all. Yeah, but you know, it's so you've got it's always I that's what they've done. The last time I went to Dallas and managed to go to one of the game and yeah, but not because I want anything, you know, it's that's the thing. Everybody's got down things. Some people may just want a couple of tickets for our concepts, you know, and that's the thing is really meaningful, because that they the impact of that. She's also you have to wait for it to apar. You think about it and you've got to find someone else to come with you. You've got to think about all the ramification of roll that sort of things. I'm and he's the fun. It's the fun because even for us we tried to be very fast. Not So. You're bringing up something that I think we call this coaching, and we talked about how to create consistent coaching it and I'll be honest, I think a lot of organizations this is one of the things that I think will change in the next few years. I'll try to wrap this up quickly, so then we're going to Rut time. But you know, we do this really well for our prospects. We keep all this information on them and in sales force or whatever CRM WI using. We know the last time we talked. We know we've talked about...

I kept a note of Rayles, the doubts, Mavericks, Ball Ball, and like we do that with prospects. If you ask most organizations how they do that with their people, they'll be like, I don't know, we talk every two weeks or I talked to him every day in slack and you know, I know I know ray but like I don't remember what is that? I don't remember his band, I don't remember his team. And so like the notes end up living, you know, on a legal pad somewhere or they're like, you know, in email or whatever. They're not in a system. And so what we built with our coaching product is that. So like every one of those one on ones or performance reviews or check ins between our rep and a manager like that gets store and they can they can revert back to that meeting from four weeks ago and he was like he told me he went to go see a basketball game. I don't remember what it was, and I'm going to see I was doubts mavericks. How cool. I'm a tip that note. And I think that employee we call a customer relationship management like I think that employee May's better. Those relationships is key. And then you also combine that with performance trender were time you say, Oh, when I ran a certain type of contest or in incentive, did ray, did he really like? Did anything change or it was that just something that he liked or he don't care about that? Okay, cool, I'll remember that. Is it when I set a personal challenge for him where I say Hey, man, this is just between you and I just want to see if you can go do this thing in the next month. He responds to that type of thing? Cool, like I'M gonna. I would now know if that I'll remember that. It's I think that's where we're going with this this space and with us as a specific company, where it's not just one size fits all, one in set of FIT's all. It's more of a personalized, smarter approach. Yeah, that's next month we trying concept of about sock like would walk, which is the the team, the team ships. I know if you're familiar with sock like would what is basically a British guy. That was it. Took on the coaching for the REDB team do the you can rid the Teindo wanted doing well and they went on to win the World Cup. To the very end. Then, since that she was it was basically the end of the Olympics when the Olympics came to London and I was one of the best ever year for our best of an Olympic for UK athlete in time of gold, middle and everything. So obviously someone who's very good at getting the most of people and he's got that concept of teamship which is well, get them to set the rules and it's interest the rules as them what they think. We should look at the other complan that already speak about the performance. Don't want to hear about that. What are the stuffings that I important and you gave mefication. You could get to point every day because you are puncture. You don't want me in the office and you get my five points. If you don't at nine, certain self, nine for example. But if he's coming from the team and the defining the rules, usually is the better too for people to Adare to them. The second thing is we also looking at and maybe something that only should you do it with your solutionism, get the other way around. So basically, is the...

...team that give the leadership team a challenge. Yeah, a game or you know, whatever it is, but is should be a challenge. You basically go to a team as it give us a challenge. What we change. You all day long about your staff challenges. Think about it. Come up with a challenge and I'm gonna take it and we're gonna have fun about it, you know, and that's that's sort of sort of things that again, it's not it's not the you've got all the other things about commission plan and everything, but I think when it comes to the top, and the top is a bit to go to the people that you know working and they look up, and so it's always medi managed me and everyference. Know, you give me a challenge. What can I do? When do you think I can do? For it with be absolutely outstanding, like for me in my shoes. What can I do and what's my time for him to do it? Let's be really sick. Let's pick up and that's kind of cool because you end up having a little bit of fun and from my personal point of view, this is how you get to the people, because they will, you know, you have just conversationals like the outside of the business, and some of them may may have somebody that thought it a bit crazy, so you may have to tame them a little bit, but some of them may come up with some consult are quite fun and in fact, then you go and do it, you make it a little bit public and it shows that you know, you are also ready to take a challenge. Yes, just responsibility people. So that's that's that's also something pretty cool at we doing. But UN fun. That's great. Yeah, I mean you you know, we try to lead by example and and and I have a bit of fun because, you know, I think it's you know, we speak about gammification. We can speak about gammification without speaking about fun. You know, it should be fun. Yeah, it should be fun. But thank you so much for you inside brand. We getting to the end of allocated time. We try to keep it factively shot shots, so some people can just listen to us, to us on that commute. If anyone wants to carry on the conversation with you, Bryan, or get in touch resambition, what's the best way to get all of you? Yeah, we're easy to find where ambitioncom like to connect with you all. We have tons of resources. If you're trying to change what you're doing, learn more about Seales, coaching, ification, performance management. I'm happy to connect with facts on like then please find me Brian Trout show, as well as to wear so not to connect. And once again, where I really appreciate you have me all. This is awesome conversation. Yeah, thank you so much for our time. As a pleasure to have you on just brand. Thank you. You've been listening to bed be read a new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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