B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode 134 · 3 months ago

134: Identifying, Training and Managing Sales Development Talent

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In an age where LinkedIn is at our fingertips, building a stellar team of sales development representatives may seem easy, but it is far more complex than it appears. There is much more to the task than simply scrolling through people’s prior experience, recruiting the most qualified candidates and leaving them to their own devices.

Rather, defining and identifying key characteristics is vital - but that’s only the first step in creating a successful sales team. Your job is not only to find the right fit for the job, but also to shape and mentor them to truly reach their potential.

In this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, our host Aurelien Mottier (Co-Founder and CEO at Operatix) sits down with Dave Sherry (Senior Manager Business Development & Sales – EMEA at Gong) to discuss identifying, training and managing sales development representatives.

Join the conversation as they dive into what traits make a great SDR and how to find them, as well as how to help them develop their skills.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to B2B Revenue Acceleration on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our website, or anywhere you get podcasts.

You weren't listening. To be to be revenue acceleration a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's give into the show. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your entire go to market your organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your customer interactions. Transform your organization into a revenue machine, or unlocking reality and helping your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io. Hi, welcome to be. To be a revenue acceleration. My name is antier and I'm here today with Dave Sherry, send your manager Business Development and sells e at Gong. How are you today, Dave? Very well or how are you? I'm good. Thanks, very very good. So today we'll be speaking about managing seales development talents, but before we get going, it would be lovely if you could give us an introduction to yourself. I don't know if you need to introduce Gong that you know what you all mean. If someone's living onto our rock for the last for the last five years, you may as well speak about maybe not about gun but maybe what's new at gun? Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, I think gone was a really good job of getting its name out there as well. So look a little bit about me. been working in tech sales for nine years. Started off with in marketing technology, working for a company called Ad Role. Started as a sales development rep there, moved into an account executive role after four years of working there and working with a kind of trailblazing product in a new category, and so joined a company called amplitude at a very early stage in Europe and over in Amsterdam. Worked as an enterprise account executive there before moving into sales development management role. Did that for around two and a half years and then I don't know if you can say the peak of covid because we've had so many peaks, and in the middle of twenty I decided to finish up with amplitude and go all in on on kind of working as a freelance consultant helping early stage SAS companies in Europe build out sales pro to see so founder lad sales or early stage sales teams decide on sales frameworks, methodologies and what tools to use and so on. So I love that. Did that for around eighteen months and then I definitely wanted to be part of a team again, and so the opportunity presented itself to one move back to Ireland, where I'm from, from Amsterdam and and and secondly, to to join a great company like God. So, Um, yeah, I'd used I'd heard of God. I think everyone's heard of Gong, but I'd used it as a power user and I thought I was using it too, it's it's full capability, until I joined the company and realized that I was kind of only scratching its surface. But yeah, I've been at the company now since November of last year and I managed the sales development team and we are now a team of ten strong, getting to seventeen by the end of the year. I think a lot of people will instantly think of, you know, linkedin posts, funny linkedin posts, people working at gongs posting on Linkedin, and they will instantly think of recording on calls. Yes, that is a part of what we do, Um, but now we are developing the product naturally into other areas where we're seeing, UM, some some very exciting things happening, the most recent being are our launch of forecasting, where companies can now actually leverage the power of going to identify what deals in their pipeline are real, are real based on reality based insights. So what is actually going to close versus what is just a rep saying it is going to close? And so that is a whole new kind of exciting territory that we've recently launched in and, based on initial results and feedback, it's it's going really, really well. So yeah, I love working on there's there's a lot happening. I love the world of sales developments and no doubt that we're going to touch on some of those areas today. That sounds great. What going is, in fact one of the sponsor of the punk guests. Thank you so much for that gas you're putting us. And Yeah, like the new functionates, you will technically be welcomed by sales directors. Surely they've got that that breach pipeline in place. So they you've been managing a lot of teams and some of some of the people you know would be good, some of...

...them will be bad. When you are recruiting, when you're trying to get the Talentin, what sort of skills, are competencies of values are you looking at getting from this individual. What, what, what is that you are looking for, and maybe you can speak about what number one priority and the nice to have as well. Be Great to have your opinion on that. So I might start by defining the two types of kind of profiles I will look at and then, within those profiles, once we kind of connect, what are the key consistent characteristics I would look for across these two profile types that I consider like my non negotiables and when it comes to to hiring. So firstly, the two profile types, let's call a profile water profile too, very creative and profile one is typically someone who, yes, who is is a lot greener in their career. It's someone who you know hasn't gotten an str role yet with a company, but they've gone, you know, perhaps maybe they've gone to a good university, or perhaps they've gone and you know if they it's okay if they have gone to a good university, but you can clearly see from their linked in profile or their CV or resume that they have tried something entrepreneurial, they've tried something themselves, to create something themselves and they've show an entrepreneurial traits Um and that they're showing curiosity towards the world of sales. So there's a lot of certifications you can get now to develop your learning of of of the world of SDR. You know, hope spot of certifications Linkedin, have linkedin learnings and so on. You want to make sure that there's someone who is showing interest in that field. So someone who has that. We're ultimately trying to find like a superstar before they're superstar. The next profile, too, is someone who has a bit more relatable functional experience working as an SDR and ideally in a company where you're pretty confident that that that they've gone through some great trainings so they're quite polished. So one of the larger tech companies, for example. However, the potential to actually get promoted within these companies is quite long. It might be a two to three year play, and so we also really want to find someone who who wants to grow their career fast but knows that in one of these larger companies where they're having great training and they're very polished, that it's going to take a lot of time. So we want to try and find someone there to bring it. So there are the two types of profile. Types I would. I would go after and Linkedin is obviously a big focus for that and we have a naturally we have a recruiting team and a sourcing team that goes out there to the field to try and get in touch with people and but also I get involved as the hiring manager. And you know, uh, sometimes it can, it can pack a bigger punch if we see a great candidate, if they're getting hit up by a recruiter, but then me as the hiring managers, saying hey, that we really want to speak with you. It doesn't always work, you know, some people tell me to go away, but absolutely, I think we all work in sales right. So there are the profile types that we look at, the characteristics. I have three kind of primary characteristics that I look for and then I would have kind of two secondary ones. The three primary ones are first, urgent curiosity, so like people who are just like they're like undeniably curious and they and when it comes the time of me meeting them, they've researched the hell out of not only gone but the space we operate the industry. And then they've researched me. They've researched the individuals they're interviewing with, but they have like this authentic and urgent curiosity to understand the why behind everything, and so that's the key thing that I would look for. Secondly, is coachability. Naturally want to and bring on someone who can, you know, absorb and be willing to take on the feedback you you give and apply it. I think this is a really important one because it depends on the context the product you're selling. Gone is arguably not as technical a product as you know, maybe something that is suitable for data scientists or something that is related to the world of databases and so on, and I think it's important for whatever SDR is interviewing, for whatever type of product, that they can grasp that product and being able to be, you know, coachable on that product. So I will deliberately give things in an interview and in the hope that the SDR will give it back to me later on in the conversation. And then thirdly, is just an undeniable, you know objective to be actually held accountable to a number.

So someone who wants to their work to be impactful and to be held accountable to that number. So someone who wants to be measured someone who has is yeah, it wants to know that if they're successful, their team and business is successful, and also someone who takes on the responsibility that if they're unsuccessful, the team hurts, the business arts. So there are there three things, and that the three primary things, and then the secondary things, and I'll finish up with this, is like, yeah, resilience, you know, Grit. You just want to make sure that sales is tough, especially right now. You know you need to get through fifty knows. I you know, sometimes it's not just a know, sometimes it's like hey, piss off, you know, like you need to get through that to get to the s and for for a lot of people who had a lot of success in their you know, in their time and education or early stage of their career, sales can be a smack in the face, and so resilience is keeping. And then the second secondary one is just yet team player, someone who's just not a lone wolf, someone who is willing to go the extra yards so someone else can be successful in the team. And it's that for me as a manager, that's just icle as we go through this team building phase. Agree with you. Dave through the five kind of characteristic traits of you know, you know, things that is engraved in the in the person. Which one do you think can be transferred through training and mentoring and which one do you think, you know, this is basically the way you've been brought up? So, for example, curusity, is that something that you can develop in someone? Accountability, is that someone that you can develop into someone? Resilience, Tim Player, I mean all these things. Do you think there are things that, if you've got it missing at the interview process, but they're good on the other four, you would still take the personal and trade to develop? Or do you think there's a characteristic that you individual have or just don't have? Yeah, no, it's it's it's a great question. I do think a lot of those things are are sold skills right, and I think a lot of them are are are naturally an age and a lot of people, I think, naturally, like not everyone that we would like, you know, hire or interview or feel good about it has like an equal spread across those characteristics. And if we feel, you know, you know, when we debrief as an interview panel and we talk about these key areas, if we see that someone is like very strong and kind of curiosity, but and they're very like, you know, their team player and they have, you know, they really want to be measured and so on, but they're just not coachable at all. Like that's that's a big red flag because it's going to create a challenge, but for the for the rep for the leader and so on. And so I think a lot of these things that I've mentioned. They're they're not the easiest thing to to coach and train and so on. So I would argue that probably know, these are the things that we would need in the individual as kind of true characteristics, because if we can take care of that, those is those individual if that individual is good in those key areas, then any kind of future training or any kind of coaching or any kind of transferable of any kind of skills, I am very confident they'll be able to absorb and apply very, very well. Okay, so you know what this is. This is music to my heal because we we kind of thought about that and about people in my team. You know, when you've got a managerity is really kiss and now I'm gonna I'M gonna train the people to that person to become coachable. I'M gonna train the person to be a bit more curious. I think you just can't. This is not transferable. Is is the way you've been brought up. Is I don't know what sort of chemical you need to have in your body, but you is a curious or you're not curious. People who are forcing themselves to be curious will be curious for a week and then they go back to not being that curious after so I completely agree with you. In fact, one one thing that was added to that, to that list, and I was quite surprised about, is naturally introverts, for organic introverts, and that's the conversation that we had with with one of one of our previous guests on the podcast, where what they were saying they was and we're looking for people who are quite introverted because they listen better and usually the introvert has played in more curious than the extravers, because they will want to ask you more questions, they would really want to understand, they would have a little bit more of emotional intelligence, which agains are like on the soft skilled type of things, probably not the must have, but nice to have, but I guess, but for audience, because we probably have a lots of people who are biders and they will live and do that and, Oh my...

God, you know, I'm a curious enough conchab enough. I'm a good team player. I don't really they can, you know, make a little for that and then. But for the SDR managers, what I'd like to speak about is the techniques that you use to kind of go through that in the interview process. So you mentioned about the curiosity. You've got someone coming. They've done the research, they know what Dave is, they know who going is. When you you finished the intervigences, you have question for me to say? Yes, actually, let me take my piece of paper. I've got plenty of questions for you. They really want to know what the job is about and it's probably the people that you try to interview, you versus Shue, interview in them. So so that's the curious. Now how do you do coachable? So first and foremost, and I think for any kind of change, for any kind of change to happen, there needs to be acknowledgement that something is not doing well it needs to change. So I would firstly start off with the question. Okay, can you help me understand an objective that you set out for yourself, like as if it was a project or something you wanted to do, but you failed in a chieving it. So you firstly want to see are they like humble enough to accept that they failed? What went wrong? So that there it shows this kind of self awareness that they're not doing something, that they didn't do something. And you have you have the people who are so that because you're touching them, two things. Now we're get involved aline accountability. Yeah, that's that question. Inter and people are like, m the last time I've failed, web flag, web flag, I'll fail every day. So can you fail every day? It must be like some small failure. Absolutely exactly. So I would just ask, okay, so a failure. So that that's a really important piece. And then the second piece is okay. So on the topic of things not going so well, can you provide me with an example where you've received some form of constructive feedback from a manager, a fellow colleague about something that you didn't do so well? And then I would ask some follow up questions to a, one, how did I feel getting that feedback? To what did you do as a result of getting it? And three, what was the result of doing I'm sorry, I'm aguous. Even say like what did you do one? You got the feedback. So I don't want to lead them into applied it and you know I got this result. I want them to get there on their own. So that coachability piece is critical. And if I feel I haven't gotten, if I'm interviewing someone who is at the very early stage in their career and they haven't got so much feedback from like managers and so on, there should be a time when they've received some sort of feedback, whether it's from, you know, a family member about doing something or whether it's sports like there is feedback happening and I think it's a concern to me if someone has issues kind of giving a solid examples and that because I really want folks to be coming into going to realize like Hey, I'm trying all these things, I really need to make sure if I'm doing a good job or not, and can you give me some feedback? I I think. I think those individuals who come in and we'll just do work and wait for the feedback to come miss out on a great opportunity. And so that question gets to the coach ability side of things, and you mentioned some things. Coming back to your characteristic what we found very successful for us it is people who with a spotting background space. So people have what ideally need a team. You would have some individual but then you may find a lot wolves. So if you've got someone who's really good at martial art or, I don't know, playing tennis and things like that, you may have a bit of a lone wolf. So someone who's really you know themselves and they are really good on their own and they may be less of a team player. But people who don't rugby football and then you look at that position on the pitch. You know what we are they doing on the pitch and they find number ten, some sort of person that kind of organize the things, and people say, well, you know what, I was the captain of my team. So you've got all those things that can be like God, I remember those things being a little plus one that we are looking for, because you've got team player, you probably have resilience. These are people, as well told you, one day, you know what, you're gonna be benched because you actually was not right or because you didn't play well. So that to take it that to take it in front of the group and that's kind of probably building a little bit of something inside them. But I think there is also the accountability and part of a team. So also spotting background is a good one. And for resilience, I remember my every single interview. Closing it. It's a very old school trick that I was told by by by someone that lens cells in the in the eighties. You know, the people who sell printers and stuff like that. You got...

...to the end of GENTLN say that. If you know what, on the personal level, I really get on with you. I think you are a great guy, but I'm fifty. Fifty, I don't think you've got any text. So, but if I'M gonna make decisions, take you on and then you throw and see what happened. If they their back and go, you're gonna you want to push the table, break doors, puns something, because they were a really good but technically under resilience and what you wanted that stage. Someone say, are you mad? Yeah, take me. That obvious before you take me and they're fighting for it. And if they say that, you know you start on Monday. That's fantastic. I'm not trial that. Yeah, on the topic of leadership, so so that's the topic of kind of, you know, getting the people in Um and we agree that some of the skills, in fact most of them, you can't fully teach them. You know, these are skills that are they need, they need to be in a things that you are, you do, things that made you. When you want to progress these people, you know, when you want to take them to the next stage? Are you looking for issuing all skills, additional traits or behavior for them to progress within your team? Because it's all good to be a fantastic Strvida, but taking on responsibility to manage more can be difficult, and then moving to an a is even again more difficult, and then enterprise, e. and potentially becoming a leader of enterprise people. It's kind of the journey that people want to take because that's what we are told. Okay, it's like, Oh, if you're a boy, you should play with little cars, if you're a girl you should play with adult you know, it's kind of the thing that you are told. You've got to go with the but I don't think that everybody can progress and accurately. Some people are really good at one role and and it takes time to progress the next one. What are your thoughts on on developing new students and what do you think need to have on top of the cost, the five cost skills? You you you mentioned to go to the next page and progress within your team. Absolutely, and it's a very reliable conversation to the context of God in Europe at the moment. You know, everyone on my and the STR team is with the company in less than a eight months, okay, and so we're now looking at the progression paths and so on. I think in my experience managing str teams, like from the best days and worst days for me are when someone moves into another role, because I'm like, like it's like a graduation, like brilliant, but it's also the worst day because I'm like we've lost the top perform and someone who's been so instrumental on the on the team. But for me, even for myself selfishly thinking about it, like the most significant promotion I've ever had was moving into an a role from str. I think it just made such a big impression on me and it just it was it was so huge, and I think that's a consistent team with a lot of folks who had spoken to but to come back your your question. More specifically, I think first and foremost, it's it's it's it's really understanding every individual SDRs. Like why? Like what is their motivator like? where? Like, like why are they firs? See why they here and where are they trying to get to? We have some folks who don't know whether they want to be an a e, whether they want to go into enablement, where they want to go into customer success, whatever the case may be, and so I very much encourage and, like, I never want to prescribe what they should do. You, like we work in flat organizations. Go Talk to people in those areas of business. Is Understand what their day to day is, what their month to month is like, what the challenges and wins they they have from being in their role. And then, you know, when you get to the nine month mark and the SDR or let's let's make a call and we're like okay, firstly, where do you have aspirations to go to move into? How what has your performance been like? If things are going great, well, then let's actually start working on a plan to get you into that area of the business. So what why would then do is approach the managers of those particular organizations and identify, like here, where the are the key gaps that you see from strs moving into your parts of the business, like where do you the areas you want them to focus on most, and then we'll look at and typically those areas would be around kind of like you know, deeper discovery, demoing and you know, the negotiations and stuff can come a little bit later on, but a lot of it is deal execution. So we're working now on putting certifications in place to help people and fill those gaps that they don't have being an SDR what are necessary for them to be successful in this...

...role, whatever it may be. So when I think about a e if someone who's going to go into the world of a we need to and get them set up on demo certifications, true discovery and certifications and then also maybe introduce them to some smaller deals to run with and to get their toes wet and so on. In the world of CS it's a little bit different and naturally the conversations are different versus selling. However, there needs to be a lot more kind of consultative based conversations, and so we and the goal is to put some certifications in place for that and but we're still at the at the early stages of that. So I think certifications are a great stamp of approval to say that this person is working on these skills, these you know, discovery skills, demoing skills and and kind of deal execution skills and then also, for the c side of things, consultative based skills as well. We have a very similar APPROACHT. So we we could in the operatics to getting me a thing for the apiece. So we are working on the APIS. We don't do a ourselves. We've got a few sales people and and in fact all of our selveses. Team is a people that have been successful in our video as the ARTI that a're moving to our selves team. And you know there are as for operatics, but of our requirement fise is probably a couple of years. You know, maximum maybe three UH and that may increase in the future. But with the level of people, with three hundred people, you've got much popable at once to progress to a so we've got three rule for maybe twenty people that would want to become a major in that year. So what we've been thinking of doing is saying wow, if those people want to become a and I know the feeling of you are great resource and you want to leave me, you want, but at sometimes I feel like you. It's like we've done something together. You've been a great soldier. You work really out. You did some great stuff. You help us to have a great relationship with customers. You deserve the next step. We should all work together and if if it's not within our organization, within operatics, we should help you to find a good place to get into an unfortunately, we've been you know, our guys when they start looking for a job, they just get a's money. They're like Oh, they just go okay, Um, and they often don't end up in the right company. They end up doing a video as Dr Job for six months and they've been promised the a year role, but there is no real training, there is no certification like you guys have. So and then things change. Maybe your owner financing is that coming? So they're not really and they always come back to us saying always promised the world and got absolutely nothing, pretty much a'mstein and the video. So to try to avoid that, we kind of listed a few clients that we know value human capital as much as we do and we are vetting them and checking them and understanding how they're gonna move toose people not only from junior a s to, you know, enterprise as, but even potentially further ap they don't eve in the past. They have a structure and then we have a program where one of the things that we want to implement is actually understanding the life of an aid. Okay, because I think when you an SDR BDA, you've got that sort of satisfy on the daily basis. You know, that little bit of Oxy Persin in your bloody when you've got like a short term success. You book a meeting with someone or you an opportunities that it is identified with someone, and that can happen pretty much every day. So every day you can come back home with a yes, I've done it. If you're an A and you're saying complex stuff, you may have the oxydacin doesn't exist anymore because you spend eighteen months raying to close that dial even if it's twelve months, and by the time you close it you exhausted, you just don't feel anything. So we try to really so that's one of the examples, but we really tried to tell them look, okay, that looks super pretty, that looks Super Shiny, but let's look at the other side, the dark side of the role, because you need to understand what you're stepping into. Do you really want to do that? So and as part of the cursores, will try to have to work with our customers so we can have a's to come and speak about what they're doing, but not in a in the show off way, in the way of this is why the job is different, this is why, this is when my mentor else was not great. This is what this and that and you...

...know, people really open up about about about the experience and we hope that it's like the Navy Seale. We think that probably around thirty percent of the people that will sign up for the course we'll just say, you know what, I'm going to go back to do sdrbd for or six months and then we'll see again. But then the people will stick with it within the course, then we will invest in them like you do, and maybe like a street or six months course to get them to an a and when they get there we can then transfer them to a client that can take them as an a. So almost becoming like not a resourcing company, because I don't think we have the scale to become a resourcing company, but a conveyor belte of talents and and we've did. We've done fifteen donald promotion in the last eighteen months within operatics, you know. So so that's not bad because eighteen months ago we were twenty people in the organization. So it's pretty much fifty percent of what we started with that has been promoted internally, but it's not enough and people want to promote quickly. My last question for you, Dave, is that I'm frame. So you and I have been in the business for little while, and do you think the expectation in some of time frame to progress with an organization is becoming shorter and shorter? Yeah, it's a good question. So it varies a lot, you know, as I mentioned, there are some organizations where it's like a three year promotion before you're in closing deals. Others it's, you know, maybe nine months. I think that your your question. Is it getting shorter? Is the expectation shot? So I'm talking about the company, but the expectation of the individual with someone who's joining you. Yes, Short, and it was five years ago in some of the expectation to be promoted to something else if they're doing a good job. Yeah, I wonder, is that a generation thing that they just want results, they want things now. I don't want to say it's yeah, no, no. I think a lot of it does depend on the on the complexity of the product itself. I think if you're selling a true enterprise, very technical based product for an str straight out of college, for example, to expect to go into this, into a closing role, you know, twelve months in, where you're dealing with super technical people at a very high level for potentially multimillion dollar deals, is it's not a reality. I think a lot of it does does relate to the I suppose, the environment and the context of the product you are selling, and I think that like my high of my view on it like a sweet spot, and I will always convey like that the teams that I've managed that you know, nothing is gonna Happen, like no promotion is going to happen in less than twelve months, but if you're still in this seat, you know in twenty four months there's a problem like this. It's it's not good for you. It's like for me it's not good for the company. Okay, so in my sweet spot is somewhere between twelve and eighteen months and and and and I will I don't want to say that's exactly what it's going to happen with a team, but I think that is when I think about a company that is fast moving scale up, likely have very kind of large, big, audacious goals and which require an SDR profile that runs a million miles an hour in terms of like activity and effort, I think in my mind eighteen months around that period is like that's the time that we could probably use that energy to it to its fullest. And I'm a true believer of promoting SDRs because it relates to things that you said. The opportunity calls to bring someone externally in versus. Promoting an SDR is just it's huge because the SDR has not only the kind of the product, knowledge and so on, but they have this just undeniable like attention to detail and hunger with not leaving any loose ends, and which can translate really well to deal execution. What I mean by that is if they get a sniff of blood in the water, they'll just be on it straight away. Or if like, they will never let a conversation end without the next step being in the calendar, confirmed and so on, whilst, you know, maybe a ease that are coming from different organizations where, Um,...

...you know, some organizations might sell differently, some organizations they might, you know, be okay without having the next step on a call and so on, because they've seen that they you know, a call does happen in the end. That's a challenge. So yeah, I've seen. We've seen not only a don but the last two companies I've been with as well. That the true success stories and have been those folks that we've promoted from the SDR work within. But what I like about what you said is setting up the expectation, you know, from the beginning, from the interview process, when they start, when the down bodied and just said look, if you expect anything in less than twelve months, if you're gonna get it, you know you may if you are absolutely exceptional, but he's such you would be such an I no idea that I don't even want to speak about it. So setting up expectation, I think, is key. I guess the prime we've got the recruitils potentially getting into the inbox and said, well, you know, you've been up on nine months, you've not progressed. Are you considering, you know, doing some stuff? And we've seen this message because they get forwarded to us when we've got people in the tone that look, I'm not interested in moving, but just so you know, this is what that's the pitch. But I think we covered most of the topic really, so I want to thank you for your insight, Dave. I think you've been very, very, very very good to to us today and to audience. You gave us a lot of tips, executable things that we can do, but purely around the interview process and what to look for. Um. I think that's super important. I love what you had to say also about about the certification. I think that's so good that you've got that in place and really I wouldn't courage in your organization to do the same thing. Just make sure you don't promote people just because they are good at the previous row into a new role. That doesn't mean that it will be good. You could turn an a player into a c player very easily do that. But yeah, I want to thank you for your time and your insight. Today was wonderful to a young show. Thank you very much. Really love the chat and yeah, I follow a lot what operatics do as well. UH, Catarina has been great to deal with as well and look forward to continuing the partnership and so on, and hopefully meaning in person, some safe so yeah, we should have we should come to the being. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, bring your drink, bring your drinking jacket, as we say. Yeah, I should be that actually in September, I think. So I'll give you a call, please do. Absolutely upset. Thank you so much for your time, Dave. Thank you all the best. You've been listening to B two B Revenue Acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time. This podcast is sponsored by Gong. Gong empowers your entire go to market organization by Operationalizing Your Most Valuable Asset, your customer interactions. Transform your organization into a revenue machine by unlock in reality and helping your people reach their full potential. Get started now at Gong dot Io.

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