B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 10 months ago

118: Prospecting Advice from the UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer w/ Benjamin Dennehy


With a title like “the UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer,” you know that you’re likely going to ruffle some feathers. You’re going to make some people uncomfortable. Because you’ve likely not achieved that title by telling people what they want to hear.

Which is why, on this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, we sat down with Benjamin Dennehy for a conversation all about his career journey and how he came to be known as the UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer.

We talked about Benjamin’s sales and prospecting best practices, why anybody can have a career in sales, why you shouldn’t automatically hire someone with sales experience for your sales role, the pros and cons of LinkedIn Prospecting, and the right ways to use CRMs as an SDR.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to the B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for B2B Revenue Acceleration in your favorite podcast player.

... out there that you can sell to? Of course you can. The problem with it is people arely that as a crop. You were listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's give him to the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a reven your acceleration. My name is Owenion with Yer and I'm here today with Benjamin Dennyy. The UK must eight. It sells trainer areas all of your heart today. I've never heard it said with a fridge exit before. By name my title. It sounds a lot better. Actually, most hated. I like you said that. How are you today? I'm very well. Yes, it's a well, it's an overcast stay here at England, but other than that we are fine. Yes, it's a good, good, well, I'm glad. I'm glad you accept to speak to me after the the rugby results from the weekends. Yeah, it's really yeah, I'll have to make the most of it because it's happening ones every nine years. It's like a Soli clips yes, it is doing the rugby against you guys. So, yeah, but I'm just going to make the most of it this week and just but today we will be speaking about sales and prospecting best practices. But before we get into the conversation, you've be wonderfully if you could just at us a little bit more about yourself, Thedora you are creating on Linkedin and all the sort of things that you I'm doing. As I was saying to you in the preparation, you are bit off a correct howlers of main team absolutely love your disruptived he's and trade to implement them. So yeah, if you could just give us a hit, a bit of backgroundabouts yourself and be absolutely wonderful. Will you? What? The first question people always ask me is how did you become the UK's most hated sals trader? And the honest answer is simply this. I've made it up. Yeah, there's there's no one less, there's no international body that measures hatred towards sales trader's right. So I looked at I looked at liken then and when I was sitting out in this business, I looked at Linkeden and I thought, what does anyone. What do people call themselves? If they're are sales leader or an expert? What I call themselves? You go on, looked in and all they do is call themselves a guru, an expert, number one, top professionals, forwards and it's all look at me, love me, love me, love me. And I thought no one wants to be hated, which means there's an entire space either not occupied or what I can create and occupy. And I thought that's it. I'm going to become the UK's most hated salves to not love, not adored, not best hated. And then, of course trump came along and he gave me a red hatter right. He had make American right, and I thought our Nickin that right, because there are thousands of Salstradan's, thousands of very competitive industry. So I needed to stand out, and so that was my whole approach. Created character that can be brutally blunt and honest, because again, most cells trainers are honest. In fact, mostells trainers can't even sell. Let's be blunt. Yeah, so this was a whole of his created character that could be blunt, be honestly truthful, be sort of aligned with my personality, but also stand out from the crowd and a very crowded, competitive, noisy marketplace and, like Dennis, just everybody screaming at each other. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and you know, you make a very, very point. Is the number of people are done. I don't mind the term sort leader, but I think you can you are guru, when people could you a guru, you are so Glido, when people could you a Soorklider, the people will self proclaimed themselves sort leader. Usually don't then to be the full sort leader. I think it's kind of a weird things because it's yeah, it's I'm a sort leader. Is is kind of a sentence that doesn't walk. If you, if you, if you have proclaim it and you're probably not it exactly. And when I started my...

...strategy on Linkedin I actually said to myself I can't call myself an expert. Other people have to. I said that's going to take years of producing contempt that people suddenly start to see as a source of truth and knowledge. And if you go through anything I've written, not once and the seven years I've been doing it have I ever said I'm an expert, a leader, a grew. None of that I've literally just stuck with and I've had people said, well, you claim to be a guru. It's actually, though, I don't have, only eve a claim to behaated, and it's true. People call me an expert now, and that's where I wanted to get. You've got a demonstrated by your behavior and what you do, not because I am I say, therefore, I am absolutely getting into the to big now. So, as I mentioned to you, Benjamin, we've got a few of our a few of our team, that a big fan of what you're doing and they love some of the the SNEA beds of information and they could catch and you know kind of you that using him that day today, which is wonderful. And we've got one lady in particular. One Lady was one of our Operation Director, so she she runs at you from a team of her own, thirty five, going on to forty five people. She's been very successful this year, in fact, probably one of our most successful operation director, and she gave me strict questions for you, because I'm all right, let's go, which is a toop erratics. We generally don't. I already made sales people we make that. What's of you on this. But you're making sales people. I guess that's as it's a somewhat slightly loaded question. And the reason I say that is anybody, if they wanted, could do so. And this is a rocket science right. We're not designing nuclear reactors here. We are simply having conversations with people and try to get them to discover they need what we have. See, anybody could learn this. The difference between hiring some of the doesn't ever salves background and someone that maybe does is they've got less bad behavior to unknow. So if you hire someone fresh outer university, they don't have this our look, I've been dourness for three years. I know what I'm doing right. So you don't have that, but they still have the same head trash problems that most people in sales have. And it's a human floor. It's not reserved for sales people. It's the way we were brought up and we were taught a lot of rules that no one ever explained to us. Don't applies and adult and and and and so it. Graduate has those beliefs. So I've never met a salesman that lacks confidence, and that's the number one thing everyone sees me. I wish my guys just had a little bit more confidence. You know, I hear them on the phone and they just need a little bit. It's not confidence, it's belief, and the reason is as a believe they're not allowed to behavior act a certain way. They believe they have to behave or act a certain words. Well, they believe that the person they callings better than them. They believe that the person their callings more authoritive than them. They believe they have to answer a question. They believe they're not allowed a challenge. They believe they have to be take the ship that stumped on them when someone's row yet they don't believe they can do a lot of things. So their beliefs determine their behavior and their behavior directly correlates to their confidence level. So the answer is yes and no. Hire. You do make sales people, but they've all got the same head trash. It's easier to trade someone who hasn't got several years experience, because you know, I've got to unlearned crappy. These salves behavior they probably hope from someone that was pretty average in the first place. It's an interesting to be because you know you're right you've got to look at God, competencies and cost kids and leg it's like feelings union. That's some people to say is that you've got to look at the values. They's just looking at the experience. But yeah, there is nothing was than someone coming in for the first six months of that carrose are in May previous company. We used to eat like that. Yeah, we needs to do it like that. And and that's so FIA tweat. We can feel some time. The sole question is, are on Linkedin? So you're very active on Linkedin. Yes, but what I your sorts on linkedin prospecting. Right. So this is interesting. Linkedin like any social media or TV...

...or radio, except marketing platform. I see it purely as marketing and advertising. It is a place to pump out content. Now, can you find people are there that you can sell to? Of course you can, because it's a modern yellow pages or a phone book. Right, everybody you want to talk to is in there. The problem with it as people rely on that as a crutch and they see it as an excuse not to actually engage with people on the phone. And I was just talking to a salves endage of this morning and he said they use linked in and they take fifteen minutes before they pick up the phone go to research. The Guy got to do so linkedin because it's such a vast of knowledge, of information, people feel they've got to absorb it. It goes back to a belief. They believe they need to know a lot about the person or the company they're calling in order the phone them. That's not true. So linkedin sort of enables behavior of procrastinating, dithering and put it off. If you just had a list of CEOS with their phone number, it's I phone them, like freak out. It's like why, what? Why do you need to know the size of the company? These this listeners be chosen for you as a business. We know these are people you should talk to, just find them about, but but I need to know what he eats the breakfast at I did. I need to have some sort of personal connects. No, no, you don't pick up the folk so looked into become a crop and I and people hide behind it. Yeah, and that's interesting to them. I think there's definitely something with color reluctance. So and probably more with with new or generation. Because of it, people are made you a little bit more used to text each other. Of Us is cutting each other and and texting or sending an email or sending something or sending a connection on linkedin seems to be like a like an act of prospection. But you know the number of connection I received one just picking some of the Gaye in May teams. If you send your connection request and I don't know you, I'm not going to look at your profile trying to figure out why you want to connect with me. At least put a couple of sentence and tell me that you want to sell me something and I will accept you because at least you made the evort of telling me why you want to do it and I will respond to say I needed to, I don't need it, or someone else in made him is the Persson you should contact. But there is nothing more frustrating at the kind of activity of just the lazy activity of just in your connection request. Now one we had that like to to debate a little bit. Usus and you think, and I appreciate for some solution is readily straightforward, because you've got to product is commodity. I'm selling storage, or I'm selling and point security, I'm sending cars or mobile phone. That's straightforward. This is commodity. I've got one, everybody's got one. I will need to replace that some point. So far that you you can really bang the phone and go without doing pretty much in your research. But for the more disruptive, more complex where you may want to use a bit of cells. Navigator to one door on the size of their team so you can tell them why. Look, if you've got fifteen sells people, we could probably and I've been looking at glass door, and you pay them all red k. So we do twenty percent more productivity. So we could give you that much money back every year. You know, kind of preparing something a bit more tell old. Do you see value using linkedin for that more telor type of approach, or do you still think it's it's something that should be given to the BDELS, because I guess your point is not against using listing. Linkedin is more like the wasting time or trange. So I have no problem with every Monday at the beginning of every month, if they spent the day doing nothing but researching like that, getting the names of the context and it's sticking into a spreach. They for the rest of the month they just phone, but they don't do that. They do this every day between phone calls, that they look through someone and it's like no, no, you should have a list ready to go. You shouldn't have to do any research or prep every day. So I used to do that. I would I would get a list of a hundred people and to speak to a hundred people on the phone is going to take several months. So I don't have to keep refreshing my list. I get...

...through month, mother, maybe I speak to team people. All I do is add another team people at the beginning of the next month and I got a hundred again. And so what frustrates me as sales people, they find an excuse and the reason they don't like calling is first they fear being rejected, they don't like the feeling and a lot of the time they're folding people that they believe it better than their folding grown ups with profit jobs probably got mortgages and like a boat or something. And so then as you on the phone, the mother whispers in their ear. What are you going to say to him when you get through and work how and like on the reason, I'll tell you. I'll see him an email, because that like at least I can't upset him absolutely. And then there is a thing where you probably you can see them the face of some people went out, probably dating someone, and that I oh shit, don't pick up, don't pick up, all right, big them, all right, right, I think like her and headlights and they free are and then they start incomprehensible vomiting and then they wonder why people get annoyed or rude with them. So I'll do we prepare them, because I agree with you. I think you know that the videos you I should be focusing on making the ATV t, but unfortunately sometimes that day is not down. You know, don't? You can't just get the data. In the US he's probably much he's you always zooming, force him less, non to something good company that prepy everything. In Europe there is some database companies, but you know they'll be details from our perspective. No, that's just our opinion. He's much more difficult to find the raid Thata in Europe. So I'll use suggest we should do it. We should shoop up the bide as in actually kind of going through that that data. Yeah, I suppose this is figure out what that so ideally you'd be able to give the data to your salves people and it's ready to go. That's in an ideal world, right. I'm fortunately that live in an ideal world and sometimes salves people are going to have to use a bit of now. So a lot of what I was in this game I didn't know a lot of the people I wanted to talk. I started off by sitting appointments for advertising agencies in London and they said I want to get in front of the brand director for Pepsi. So I'm going to figure out who the brand director for Pepsi is. Does it e quit Google search. You'll get a name, but the name could be two years old. But I got a name. So what they got to do is learned techniques, and I will deliberately. So if you know you need to speak to the odor of a company, so hard to figure that out right. So I would phone up and I'd make up a name, like I can I speak with a rally and please. Yeah, and I got these no, a ralliant, here I go. I think you'll find there is and they'll go, don't do it. Is it? I got? He's your managing director. And what I do that they correct me. They got to our managing directors, Peter Wilson. Thank you. Now the name. I can phone back a day later and asked to speak with Peter. So they were all these techniques I would with a particularly with phoning big multinastals. Cocacola was a classic trying to get through to the direct line of a director at coach, but I was able to figure out the last four digits on the phone number, or the one I had to fiddle with. So I just as three hundred and one, three thousand and two, three hundred and three. Then you worked out the executive street was three four whatever. I would get through like that. So you have to be quite tenacious and creative. Now there are two types of sales people. Are those that are hungry to do that and achieved, and those that expect to be spoon fed one of what is the other what I call they just at adjust. As you know, just got fired life and just Higettin. I used to be there. I used to do it. We used to put into fund roulette where we couldn't not find direct person. Is like a no name number, Bile Fun Switch Board and you're okay, well, your switch box, can you bay four thousand so there's do falls, zero, name, name falls your world, seven, seven, and then you find someone is like, well, can I speak to that dozen? That's a world, world, World War on. I'm I mean proclamant. Yeah, I have no idea what it felt is. What could you look at them up in the directory, because I was given the number I have.

I did write it dumb by mean and they just they just have make exactly. It's a bit chicky. It's a bit Cheky. That's when we used to do in the good or net wasn't much, only because, you know, you've got deals on gays, a wrong. You had that kind of listening to you and everybody. He actually never could. Kind of an interesting it's almost humoristic in the way because you do. It was a bit of fun and he always going to trained to do anything bad. He is at the end of the day, you know, is just he's restraining to get through to the right about. I used to do all of that, and I mean because I was chasing big characters. I finally get through to say a bit. I find to get through to the brand director for Cocacola. For All of you know UK or Europe, you know it's a bit top person to get through to the moment they'd answer. I would eddied answered it or early or really I see a lot of rally and I got to be up front with you. You are my white wail market and I have been hunting you across the Pacific for the last three months. This is my moment to singer harpooded. Can I have thirty seconds? That all laugh and they let me do my bit. They'd either say, you know what, beach but no one dressed happy, or I'll tell you what being you are quite like your approach. I'm happy to have a meeting with you. Yeah, don't my clients. He's all say. How do you do it? How do you get people just so relaxed? Because I don't sound like a salesman, I don't act like a salesman. I'm not scared of the people I'm folding, I'm not scared to find them. I know I'm allowed to interrupt them, I know I'm allowed to talk to strangers. I know I can do this. So it's getting tells people to appreciate that, but they don't. That's kind of fitting. Me To a question from Joe Grief. With our end of training and development was also a big front of yours. And and he's question was around you know, do you have any very specific well of getting into a call of call, and what's your metter and what do you fain effective, because you just give us a Gar exam board down. So what is it? Is it's humor? Is a is it like going to a girl at the bar and just being very defriends? I've thinking, I guess your dream just coming up with something a little bit more, a bit more wolf was there. Wasn't get you. You have to first what yet? You have to stand out and you got to say something. It's a psychiatrist call it. They call it a patent terrupt. It's where you say or do something that's unexpected, so it shakes them out of their Malays. Now you are gonna this is the thing with prospecting. You don't know what the mood or what's happened to the person you're calling the thirty seconds pro so you will meet people that are miserable and angry because I've had a crack day. So sometimes it will bomb, but most of the time most people are normal and civil. So you do what's called a pattern dropt and a patent, and I've got numerous patterns or upside used, but one of my favorite is disarming honesty. Is a great desarming or the quickest way to build trust with a stranger is DIS army honesty. So soon as the ceere go out, as Icho, not Urlen, you are gonna hate me. This is a sales called. So do you want to hang out or let me have thirty seconds now? There is a psychology behind this. I know that if I give somebody a command or an order, human nature is to rebel. They dude. People do not like to be told what to do. You go to the museum and it's his do not touch. WHAT DOES EVERYBODY DO? Just tax it, just gotta touch it right, or don't stand on the grass anyfore, I just dip. Get it. Humans are rebellious. They hate. So when you get through the decision maker and the first thing you say is do want to hang up, instinctively the gon know and I caught of where I want to. This is not a this is no longer an unsilicited phone call. He's actually given me permission to talk to him. So I try and proble them. I will, depending on what sector. So currency traders or recruiters. They're not particularly liked because they're so vociferous on the phone, that always on the phone. These people's they have a reputation. So I would start phoning up and what I was doing it for, they might say, I'll be up for if I told you, if I told you this call was about currency or recruitment. What a little piece of you die. And then yes, yes, rather than justify go,...

...why does everybody say? There and then they've bent. I hate you guys. You got blue and at once they finished benting, bendings like a good vomit. You feel better and in that moment I've got them where I need them. Psychologically. They're comfortable with me. And then I go look, I beat all those calls of rubbish to they are. If I guarantee the next thirty seconds will be different when you hear me now. Yeah, you know, he's all come down to a really, really a Niver of confidence and is and consult with Yasol. If, as a bell person, comforts in your in your approach and comfort in your in your also in your sense of human and I think you know kind of people can get, kind of get that and I think that's okay. But coming back to one of the points that you are making early on, we take that analogy of is very difficult to contact someone and try to sell something that you don't really under someone how it works, or you don't really under the product or you don't under some you know. So you almost need to find a way, in our book at least, that's what we believe. This is true, to convince the cells right that everybody should get one. So if, if I'm a firm believer, if you've got two cells right that is just about to make a goal call and they truly believe that that cool, cool will help the person at the other end. It's actually going to be the good news of the day for them and in fact we could just really change their life, make them get a promotion or whatever. That completely changed the wood of the call. Is Very difficult to put in practice because some of the product, and we know we cover a lot of clients and some clients are very straightforward. Some those are very destructive with technology that are co relatively technical. So you first of all you don't know who to target. You don't know if it's D nd or the end of the brand or whatever is is lots of different people. But then when you get to it, do use case. Can Be different if you will. So do you have tactics to kind of make the sense people at is? Because again, I think what you are doing is is brilliant, but it you need you gone to do it. Was Nurse Right. So so, first of all, yes, confidence a a a salesman. Somebody asked me, is it art or science? I said it's both. It's theater. A salesman is like a great actor. They can memorize their lines, they can know the whole movie inside out, so they know where it's going and what's going to happen, who's going to say what, but they're also able to act in the moment and see. You have to be a great actor and a great communicator and you've got to marry the two together. Confidence comes when you believe in what you sell. That if you're picking up the phone and you don't believe in what you're selling, then it's never going to work. Secondly, if you don't think that this is the best call that that person is going to take all day, if they have problems you fix, you shouldn't be making the call. The other thing you've got to do is our see average salesman, what do we fix and, most of all, look at you blankly. And now what they'll do. So I'll start talking about how you do, what you do and what you do. It's so, no, no, I didn't say what do we do or how do you do? I see what do we fix, and in that moment your salesman will realize I don't understand my prospect. If I can't talk about what we fix, I'll never be after to engage them. So when you pick up the phone, it's not to talk at them about you or what you do or how you do it. It's what do I say to this person that's going to make them realize I'm talking about his or her world. So I can't phone up and sell and salves training, because no one by salves train what they do by it or Elier. Are you frustrated that you've got sales guys that are reluctant or not motivated to pack up the phone? Are you worried that when they do, they sound a bit weak at a bit look rested, and you think I would live a buy from them? Or, thirdly, is your biggest fear that when I get in front of people they just too quick to discount. I'll get the feeling you're going to tell you don't recognize that and they're all you sell. Is Not I recognize that. Now I'm a newer world under myself. Hundred Persons I just took a note about make their believe in the...

...in what they said were. It's like everything. I think there is a bit of preparation up from to get the people ready, and it's important to it's important to to be able to articulate that and and and I also completely agree with you. In fact, one example I would give you is, and we often ask, what pretty much consistently ask, in fact, to our clients as part of our kickoff process. What is the value of spending one hour with you in a meeting room as as a vendor, okay, as as a technology vendor or selvice vendor, whatever. What's the value? What would the prospect get out of it? The reason why we've done that is because pre covid we used to do a lot of face to face meetings, and face to face meeting quite good in time of people. If they invite you to the office, they won't not turn up calls. People don't don't have to call this kind of okay, not to turn not to cause an any sense something, some excuses about the car crash or dog or, you know, the guard not being their, the Amazon Gay was there, or people just turned up into the literally ten minutes after the call started, which again is I I just run over with the other called. So what we trying to do? So through asking that question, is really explaining the value of the meeting so people and then make sure that we can articulate that also in an email, in the follow up, in the in the agenda, so people don't forget about it and still want to come. But to your points, like asking the sales guy what way the product? What are the benefits? Sometimes when you as the questions of what what would the prospect get out of one hour's like? Well, they get a demo, all right, but what would they learn? How would you change their life? What can if they don't buy your stuff, which is likely that you know ninety percent one ninety five percent want. What are they going to get away with it? We were sorry. What are they going to get away with that they can bring to their board, to their pills, to what's the learning? Are you going to share some industry stuff? And most of our clients, not all of them, but I would say probably forty percent, actually struggle to articulate that. So we have to help them to articulate that value. And that's also so important, because imagine you on the video and your job is to book a meeting. If you don't know the value of something you are doing, if you don't know the big why? Why the meeting? If that's not look for you. I'll do you want to convince someone to take it. So I think it's a very arresting a lane of swords arounds the creating a perception of that doesn't cannot say no to me. And if a person reject me and say no to me, these are do it very, very rudely and as fine, I'm going to move on. I'm going to try them away again in two weeks time when they probably feel better. Oh, I'm going to take a clever answer from them, a real intelligent why not? Because the way not is as good as let's go for a meeting on the something way someone does, I want to meet with you is can actually save your taiment money. So all right, I got now another question from jewel, which me meaning to the Linkedin prospecting answer you gave me, I think, instead of getting there with that question. So what is your opinion on Crm's for as Gus Rock will it get? CRAMS could become a cruck, because I spend so much time into a seam system like that. Says only as good as the data that goes into it. So it's only as good as the user. Again, see rams used as an excuse start to pick up the phone because I get off the PHUCK. Got To put a message, left a voice mount. will try again now. Now I'm better, two minutes is gone and it's a way to avoid getting straight back on the horse and folding again. That's why I don't like them, because and then they we tend to measure the wrong things as well. Salves better just they makes a number of dolls. Number of dolls are stupid, because you make sixty dollars that go nowhere. That's the stupid bit, right. Or so they makes sixty dolls and team people answer, but none of the bye will. What's the prop so that so so measuring the right thing. So the cram is away again. The sales people. Whenever...

I go into a company and I say okay, cause let's make some calls or want to hear you today, how long it takes from those words leaving my mouth someone actually making a phone call? I could honestly be sitting there for ten minutes. So what is going on? And they're in the cram system. Can Call her? No, not, who as are? Just phone anyone in it, just to I want to hear you. So No, they are a bit of a crutch. I would say. The only time you stick anything in the CRMS if you spoken to a decision maker and I've see, we're not interested, or call me in two weeks. But you don't need to put up. Left of voice, Smile, left a voice message, sent an email, try to get in touch. But he wasn't. And this is all Fuller Donald Team. People in a row, bank, bank, Bang, and then leave your notes, because nine out of ten of them won't go anywhere. Yeah, you need to stop and between calls. So no, see ums important, but it's again it's used as a mechanism to avoid calling. And if you're doing if you're at work for seven hours, say, and you're supposed to prospect for four of those. If you're only making sixty dollars a day, you're doing a lot of farting about, because a few of those went to nowhere. So what did you do for the rest of the day? And you know what I've been asking like that lane of swords is pretty much been mad made day today for the last ten years. You know it's I think there's one of comment that you made a a of the the volume of activity being bullshit. I can't agreement. I think what you need to track, you need to track the quality of what we're doing in in that prospecting world and the quality started, the meaningful conversation. Are Many meaningful conversation you've got? You want me to put a lot of activity. Look. Well, speaking now we're in the UK's to hundred thirty seven, to thirty seven to thirty seven PM, so you know in the of for Nooon, what's happening. Well, if you're a director of any salt, you probably going to have been meeting until five, sorty six o'clock, potentially six thirty. If I want to grab you, calling you at this time is absolutely pointless. You are on a call with someone else, like we are with your doing something else or you are king on a project and your fund is on silence. You get the shit done right. So the ideas. First of all, are you putting the activities in the right you know someone the gay will wrote the polatical prospecting all it exactly the golden hours. Are You cooling in the time where you can? Are you going fishing for that big white well when it's actually a good time to go fishing? Right? Why are you going fishing when there is no fishing in the pound of the old sleeping? Exactly? See You guys, what time? You know you can fish as much as you want, you can come with as many line as you want. If the fishes are not dead all sleeping, you won't catch any. So I think it is it can be a big smoke screen that sort of volume of call you are making. The second thing is that, I mean we know the tactics right. I've been doing the job of a colleagues next to me that actually are or if find at the idea of speaking to a prospect. So this hay on the line, literally the stay on the line with the switch board. Yeah, becaud on the voicemail, saying nothing on the voicemail, keeping the line open so it looks like there is a meaningful conversation. Exactly. It's a cool time. So you measure how long you been on the fault. So if you tell a human being you gotta be on the phone for two hours a day, they found the talking clock and let it Ram belong for twenty minutes and that's the thing. So that is and we it's kind of having that conversations. I've been there, mate. Look, show me your activity, but show me when you put the activity. And, quite frankly, I think the honest, honest thing with activities that if you are part of our team and one of our other job comes to you and say, Benjamin, we need to look at your activity, that means that you are in that you are in trouble. You're in trouble because, basically, we don't trust that you're doing the right thing, and that's bad and I think that's where, again, we try to help COR reluctance, because I think it's it's normal for the for the new person to be a bit scared about it, to be a bit concerned, to not feel, you know, you mentioned like feeling and the authority of that as all that game must be so important. Yeah, we still all made of the same tissue, blood and everything right, but a young star as someone with twenty five coming out...

...of school. They're going to call someone with fifties got like Seti, as experience, notice things inside out. You just think that you know if the conversation goes I won't be able to answer any objections. So I think there is we need to help these individuals to feel better. But what's interesting with the CRM, sister an Ecze, that I think they're a design for the videos down, a design. Yes, Dus, you can use some of those. Our solution like this sends. Automation will have been better. Okay, so lack of sells love that we we we like. Or you've got some of the stuff like our stretching or yeah, Ram Cram was a sticking plaster for a bigger problem. People are buy CRA but the belief that have good serim systemout get more leads. Yeah, it's Bollocks, because the person making the phone college generating the leads. It doesn't matter what system they type their behavior and do. That doesn't generate it either. So No, so people park. Is that? Well, this will solve my prospecting problem. It's flash. It's got all of us and I just see give my giving tools to monkeys as used to solicitor how to use the tool and also they they've not been designed for as the house. There's a reality down a design that I think from me, I mean. And of course they all move like a sells for some shows designing. You can pay a lot of money to get it singing and then sing like the way you want. So is the same with ups but Microsoft Dynamics and zoo and all that. But the way custom out the the crm walks is pretty much when you've got the piping opportunity. Is when the business is going, when you've got you, as you mentioned, you've got that first engagement. That's when you put it in the CRM system. Okay, all the prospection that thatay is. Do you want to have a thousands of flames of data and your crm system that will just age and get crop of a time? You can if you want, but what's the point? Okay, what you should have is to of like a social intelligence that are based right, but actually your system in which your videa is the outworks. You can get the right metrics, the right measure, a bit of cool recording, a bit of artificial intelligence behind it so you can get quicker into finding what's going on, etc. Etc. And then you just spit out the interesting stuff into the crum system. So the crum system remains clean with just the opportunities. All they are progressing and more like the field selfs type of things, which is okay, I've got an opportunity, I make closing it, I may following the process and then when they become a customer, or do we make sure that we follow up with that? And that's clients relationship management, not prospect relationship management. So that's an hundred percent agree with you on that one. A last destructive one with with ANA here, which which I think you have interesting views on. When you think about incentivating the team with time off or voutschers for doing the job they are being paid to do and get commissioned for, do I think you should give them more the symptoms to do the job that they basically they're already paid to do a job, they get commission to do the job and then you know, people are saying you can't self motivate yourself. You're never gotta be motivated anyway. So it doesn't matter what you offer. The v People that will do it would have been the people that would have done it without the offer. Yeah, it's simple. At if you have to motivate sour to do the job they say they want to do, they don't want to be there. So now I don't think you need to offer it at it's dice baby to reward the best, but to encourage the slackers to do work. It won't work because if they wanted to do it, they would be doing it. And the people that would it will be the best performers anyway. So No, I think it's just dumb. What's good for the best performance? Just giving them a pot, but I don't think it motivates anyone to do better. It made. It could spark in a yet to blue or blossom. Salesman, a spark. That could happen. But I think most of the time you're just chucking good money after bad, and and so best incentive your sin. That's best way too, which you vate too much. You've Indo gainst to get going. Would you say his money? Would you say is starvation ression? Starvation a hundred percent commission. If you don't sell, you don't eat. You know how quickly people get good at salent.

But would you get we? Would you get them coming in, though? Would you get the rank talents coming in? Because I would be don would be deals or objective? People say, well, look, I'm the good sense. People won't come to join me then because I don't be a good basic salary. Ah, good good sales people don't need basic salaries. I have a basic salary for ten years. I eat everything I kill. It motivates me to keep doing what I doing in to get better. If I was paid for K year, regardless of whether a lot I sold, I would do a hell of a lot, though, I think the best sales people, now, obviously it's a bit controversial, but most good sales. But look, you set up a company, right. Who's playing you to sit up a company? No one. WHO's modding music, your own? WHO's taking all the risk? I am. If it fails, you lose. You're not saying no, no, no, you got to pay me to set up this business. Well, that's yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. I just think I'm just thinking about theology and listening to it so I'll, may God he's well, stick higher. Commission reward people that kill and don't reward people that don't. Because remember, eighty five percent two people don't want to be in sales. They're there because they needed a job. So they just want to take orders and they're hoping enough crack will filter through to them where they could take enough orders to get by. And they say server base and that's it. And actually they know this because if you meet the average owner of a business and I say, why don't you just fire your worse before was get well, I can't, because you know, they do bring a business. You know, you could swap them with a bit of Ai and the same amount of business would come. And the problems is, yeah, because they that they order takers who manage and they know it and I know you can't fire me. Yeah, very good, they're good sons. Good would potentially, but listening the right thing. So we get into the end off of our conversationately, but I want to thank you so much, Benjamin, for showing all your INSER, and I love the bushion and of some of the you coming with you mean me smail a lot today because it's it's distructive. But I do agree with them and I think you've got you've got an interesting way to go about it and I fully you know, like and has done, like Joe I've done, it's I think it's about people using that sort of conversation that we had today, pick a couple of nuggets from it and try to put them in that in that day to day time, the three in that day to day life, and see if they would led them to move the needle and get better success or better resource potentially. And I think you've just done that today, giving us less of fantastic example and great analogies that that hopefully will let people to refrain their shoes and feel better about themselves. However, if anyone wants to carry on the conversation with you, what's the best way to find you? So they did. Obviously that's where I live. Or Youtube. I've got a youtube channel. You guys most had it sels. Try to add my website. UK's most had it. Aus. TRY TO DOCOM's. It's all the same, but linkedin. If you do see me a message, I'll try to respond. I get lots. I do try to respond to all of them, but you know how like did. Works. Basically just just get pushed down and it's very easy for me to forget or out of side, out of mind, so you have to be patient or see me or reminder. I'm not being rude, I just get a lot of stuff. But my other thing, well, I want you to thank you again for being part of the show today. Thanks by your insight and let's reconnect soon because I think we could have another session speaking about modes, still basically in mode. So thank you so much for I think today you're welcome. Thank you for having meal. You've been listening to be to be read. Neuwe acceleration to ensure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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