B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 2 months ago

115: SDR Manager Effectiveness - 4 Keys for Success w/ Kyle Coleman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of SDR managers become SDR managers simply because they were very good reps. They excelled at their roles as SDRs, and so by virtue of their skill, they’re promoted to be an SDR manager.

Which is great for them. But often, what doesn’t get trained are simply expectations. What is expected of an SDR manager is very different from what is expected of an SDR. It requires a different mindset. A different focus. How can SDR managers set their teams up for success?

On this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, we talk with Kyle Coleman. Kyle is the VP of Revenue Growth at Clari and was kind enough to come on the podcast to talk about some great topics this episode.

Some of the topics included the 4 key things SDR leaders need to be doing to build successful teams, the soft skills that SDR leaders need to have in order to succeed, why we see SDRs more often progress into AE roles than SDR manager roles, and how to identify if an SDR is a good candidate to progress to an SDR manager.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

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You were listening to be tob revenueacceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge ofsales and marketing in their industry. Let's give into the show. Hi,welcome to beat. To be a reve in new generation. My name isonion with Kier, and yet today we sky cord man, VP Revenue GrowthClary. How are you doing today? Guide, I am living the dream. How are you doing? Ray, very good. Thank you, veryvery good. So today we're tooking as Dr Manager Effectiveness, but before weget into the top peak, would you manage just giving a little bit ofbackground to yourself kind as well as the company Hewers and carry? Yeah,absolutely. So. I currently am at Clary, but I'll get a moment. Prior to joining Clarry, I was at a company called looker for sixyears. I was the sixth employee. This is intelligence company basing California.Grew the SER team from myself to about sixty five people globally. As acompany grew to about eight hundred or so employees over the course of six years, got to about a hundred ten million in revenue and then was acquired byGoogle for two and a half billion dollars in two thousand and nineteen. Thenjumped over to Clary, where I lead sales development, sales enablement, valueengineering as well as demand generation, so the teams that are responsible both forcreating and accelerating pipeline for both our new logo business as well as our customerexpansion and retention business. And what Clary does? It clary is a revenueoperations platform that makes all of your revenue processes as connected and optimized as possibleso that you know where you're going to lay and before it happens, youknow in week one of the quarter higher court is going to turn out,and that just makes life a lot easier, both for private and public companies.Yeah, sounds good. Replacing the taking away the pain off ocassing ina way, I guess. which take exactly right. And one of theone of the reason no one of the fight that trigger that conversation they releaseis suppose that you put on Linkedin, and that's interesting. Piece was about, as Dr Manager, I thinktiveness and you are laighteen that post. Fourpoints that you be Funda Mentor for as Dr Letails to be successful. Wouldyou mind just taking audience through the four points and explain briefly which one ofthem mean from your perspective. Yeah, I will answer your question here Ray, but I want to give you a little bit of background, which isa lot of strs managers become managers just by virtue of having been really goodreps, and the same is true, of course, on the saleside witha kind of executives that turn into sales managers. And often what doesn't gettrained are simply expectations. What is now expected of them that they're in amanagement role. It's very different for being a high performing individual contributor and itreally refers a different mindset at different focus, a different time horizons, different goals, all these sorts of things. And so I realized that this wasthe case with a handful of the managers that we have on the team herebecause they had been promoted. They were strs for two plus years each andthey were excellent team leads. People looked up to them, their process managers, all the sort of things. So it's a pretty natural evolution for themto become management people on our team. However, they were first time managersand they didn't have a ton of understanding of what it took to be successfulin the role, and so I thought that it was a disservice to themto not give them more prescriptive understanding of what it takes to be successful.And that's how this manager effectiveness exercise was born. Created the scorecard that wehad them evaluate ourselves against, we evaluate them against, and I created thegaps that exist and now we know what we need to work on for eachof them over, you know, the Munth and quarters, so that theycan continually improve and continually become a more effective manager. I feel the pain. I feel the pain guy, and the reason why I feel depend probablysome mismiling. When we are going through the the intro of way, thefall from the mentors. We've been very big on the promotion from within toParatics, bit like a Papa Jones or McDonald relative, and pretty much orderof our managers even get ay now we're just to set up the podcast todaywith our marketing director. They all coming...

...from an is dal position, sothey were stopped at the bottom. So what you end up getting, youget. You end up creating a fantastic card show and people want us onlyread the business inside out, but my God, the gross pain can bevery painful and I think for us, with we tried to do is evenbefore the promotion, is setting up expectation. So actually, right now we're goingto running so size of competency frame wall, because I may be gonethings that you can would be a fantastic manager and you would become Vinci alsothat's you're are frontestic manager. And for some reason we do it and he'sbecomes very painfully he doesn't walk out. And what we don't want to dois to build a good resource and and it's our job as the manager,of the potential manager, of the coming of manager, to find the rightpossible just people are right. So yeah, I do feel so much what youare saying. Very interested to the move. Would the fall fundamental,the end of the detenant. There you go. Yeah, I'm not surprisedthat here we're aligned. I mean, this is a pretty common problem forgrowth companies. So they answer the question that you asked about what our kindof a categories that we're evaluating our managers against. What defines SDR management effectivenessto us? And there are four main categories. The first one is makingthe team successful, and this includes things like people development, you know,helping people grow their careers, identifying what growth paths they're interested in and ensuringthat they're prepared for this growth pads. It's things like effectively running team meetings. You know, this is a major gap for a lot of people thatare promoted from an individual and to a manager role. They've no idea howto run meetings, that to prepare, what data points are interesting, howto communicate key things, all these sorts of things. It also includes thingslike how to influence behavior and how to motivate other people, and again,these are more leadership capacity things. This is not just management, it's alsoleadership and if I were to point out a pretty big gap between an individualmoving into a people manager role, it is developing those leadership skills. Andso this first category of making the team successful really is centered on leadership.I think expectation is is quite interesting. The big gap that we've seen ispeople kind of being a good sense spells of managing their own business, basicallythe person they manages themselves and obviously, when you all responsible for all thepeople to deliver, and for me that was a massive cross paine because Iwas Oh my God, I need to change now. So yeah, hundredpercent. And and another thing that was probably always see being a little bitmore of Gross Spain is on the funding out to adapt your communication with leadership. Okay, what we need to show, and while you are probably much betterat that because we kind of tell, we need to see. I thinkhe's setting up the expectations of what needs to happen and what it meansto be a manager for you personality, but also your relationship with people,because your relationship will involve you've got new managers, you've got set up yourrelationship with them. So it's again music to males and it's a good segueinto one of the other four principles or pillars that were evaluating our managers againsthis cross Functional Leadership Acumen. How good are they at doing the things verythat you just mentioned? Managing up to this the more singing people. Howare they reporting on progress? How are they giving data read outs that?How are they making sure that the right people cross functionally have insights into theright things at the right times? But it's also managing across you know,if you're an ser manager, how do you work well? Now with anAE manager? It's very different. Than working with an individual a and thereare different considerations, there are different things or different topics that you need tobe well versed on, and so that kind of cross functional leadership is anotherreally, really important thing that you make sure that you're really prescriptive about trainingyour team on. So this is the first two categories. Is leadership amongkind of down the chain of command, and then across and up the chainof command. Yeah, the third and I think probably most natural pillar isprocess management. So if you are an individual contributor and you are promoted intoa managerial role, it's probably because you...

...have a pretty good eye for processyour organized, your efficient, your proficient with all the things that you needto do, you understand all the all the tools and technology. And now, in a managerial role you have to be able to document your process ifyou haven't already, and you have to be able to train on this processes, and so that sort of process management is super, super important. Idon't know if I've ever seen a successful on frontline manager who's not really reallywell versed on the processes that it takes to be successful. In fact,you know, speaking about the busy team of promoting from within, we actuallyget a lot of fantastic ideas from the ground up in time of of whatyou just mentioned, which is the processes and making sure that people and getthe right data right time, that we provide them with the right input,with desire off from them, but also in them, of ultimating processes.It's often coming from the bottom of the company grow you see less and lesswhat's opening on the ground. That's good for people like me or my businesspartner with the seat of the business. I mean's don't know, five yearsago, six years ago. Free equip the newly promoted manager with confidence andalso tell them, look, you're going to make mistakes, but we wantto carry you need to do new thing. You have processes that we will setthat we will teach you, that you've got to do. But whensomething is not walking, there is two things you can do. Is Lookup and expect something to come from us or try something. Yeah, okay, and if you try something and new Fain, we're going to learn alltogether and we're going to make the rest of it him long from it.Oh, you can try something and see it and become a hero. Okay, so you use all alone, you become a hero. But don't lookup because we don't have all the processes. So we trying to really empower themto think on their fit and we believe that they are the best peopleto do it because they are the people that are in the trenches literally justnow. So yeah, it's important for that process. Expect we think it'sabout them getting the expertise of knowing our basic process, but he's also developingdown expects and we've got so much coming from the team, and that's forthem. Is Creating legacy which in return make them feel fantastic, which inreturn may give them even more prospect to progress. And for us, froma selfish perspective, they feel important, they feel invested, so they stickwith us. I love that and I couldn't agree more. And again,I'm really useful. Segway into the fourth and final category here, which iskind of hard to care arise together or lumped together, so we just callit intangibles, which are exactly what you just said. Read the autonomy.Are they able to think for themselves, so they able to create something newfrom nothing? Critical thinking skills. As an individual, you're probably very goodat being assigned a task and figuring out how to solve it. As amanager, you have to both identify what needs to be solved and you haveto solve it, and that is a very, very important step in criticalthinking skills. intenigibles also include things like you listening skills, and you haveto train. And again, most individual high performing reps are great listeners,but it's a different ball game when you're managing people and not just managing deals. And then one other thing I want to mention is is curiosity, andI think this this goes really nicely to what you mentioned. Ray. Ifyou're really curious about the process, if you're really curious about your people,the personas the company itself, the product, the solution you're selling, it's extremelyimportant for you to have that curiosity so that you can do exactly whatyou said. You can create this experiments, you can create hypotheses, you cantest this hypotheses, you can do readoubts on what you learn, youcan admit to failure, you can admit to success. It's really, reallyimportant. So those are the four pillars and we could spend many more minutesand hours probably unpacking these, but I think at a high level it's areally useful framework to think about how to evaluate your team. And then again, I don't want to. I can't stress this enough you. The onusis on you, as a manager of managers, to make sure that theseexpectations are really well articulated and documented and that you're doing everything you need toyou to train your team on this doesn't just happen by accident. It happens, like anything else, by intent, and so you have to be intentionalabout definding these things, and that's how...

...you say your team up for success. A undred Possi in agreement with your in the intangible. In fact,this is probably intangible that are the most difficult to assess if you don't havea framework to us at them. And you know probably, for example,you know listening and speaking. I think the emotion is changing drastically when youare videaized. The ore valsus becoming a manager. You know we we actuallytrain or gay to coach. We've got a training program with an External Companycalled the sells impact academy around coach and the art of asking question to openup a resource, to open up a colleague, versus telling you what todo. The out of making people take the decision for you, and theseare probably the dose kind of self skill where you've got people who've got theempathy, right emotional intelligence, the rat curiousity, which for me, arethings that come from your education. You know, you can't. I can'tteach someone to become curious right youse a welcome curious or you've been developed byyour authorency and your education to become curious, or you are not joious. I'mnot going to make you curious. I don't think is. I don'tthink I can. I can't make you more emotional intelligence. I can makeyou feel that you can walk on it, but you know, it's like everything. You've got strength weaknesses, and what you should do is obviously tryingto get better at your weaknesses, but I think most people that it shouldfocus on their strength. You know, I love the intangible and do skills. What we try to do? We actually try to build a team ofavengels. We've got one day at one day that can go on down thewater, the other one get great and get fretty younger. Ideos are onecan do whatever, because sometimes finding the full package is a bit difficult.Okay, but if we can find someone that is ide emotional intelligence, havea good listening, ears and everything. Maybe someone will have more of amanager role towards the resources on the compaign co one of got more criticals thinking, maybe a bit more curiosity or more assertiveness, maybe more like a clienttype of day. But then we can pair them to work together and letthem learn from each other. And sometimes finding the full page has been difficultand obviously you know you as we grow. Now we are seconding the roles,but when we will promoting the first manager? You had to be aSwiss some my knife. You need to be able to recruit, need tobe able to enable, you need to be able to coach, you needto be able to deal with clients, you need to be able to customor success, you need to be able to report up, report down,manage expectation. And that's a little bit too much for resource to text.What we really is about. The years this intangible are probably the most difficultbecause there's the thing that you can't teach people and you kind that sort ofgroup where everybody feels good because while they may not be the full package andthey know it, because you do three hundred and sixty interviews and you youdo, you do the competency framewalk. You know what your strength thought andyou know that you ought to tie rod something. So we start trying tobe like a Jakeo for trade. We tried to get our guys to belike a easy experience of that. You Won't Ski Coaching Session. Go toJosh's probably one of the best coach we've gotten the team. You know.So do intens you what are very interesting. I'd like to know two things.I'd like to know how you've been measuring them and I'd like to knowyour feedback or so. And you alsoits on what we've been doing, whichis kind of trying to that assemble a team of a venge of the ElsoI think somewhere does it a bit of a thing. It's just like anyteam. You know, sports metaphors are really useful here. You don't builda successful sports team by hiring a group of leaden people that are all reallygood at the same thing. You need people that are specialists at certain things. You need a strengths to complement each other's weaknesses and that's how you builda great team. So we were totally aligned on that front and recognizing whatpeople strengths are. While improving the weak areas is really important. That wayyou can kind of have the best of both worlds. Even know who thego to person is for training and onboarding. You know who the go to personis for growth pads and training, for what's next in the career developmentstandpoint. You know who the right person...

...is to go and have a difficultconversation with as an individual, a or sales manager like you know, andyou can learn from each other that way. So it's really, really useful.A lot of people make a terrible mistake of hiring for a profile that'sthe same exact person and then you end up with a team that looks,feels, acts and thinks the same way and that there's nothing sure to stuntyour growth then having a group of people that thinks the same way. Sowe are eye on that point right now. Your first question, how do wemeasure the intangibles? It's hard because they're intangible. So it's not likeit's not like you can assign, you know, any really specific score.It really I mentioned this before. I'll really I'll restate it. We askour managers to self assess, say, okay, here's the list of intangibleshere's a definition of what they mean. How do you feel like you've beendoing against these over the last six weeks or over the last three months,wherever the time Pritin is, and why? So give us a qualitative statement againstthese qualitative goals and let us know where you think you are now.At the same time, your manager is going to do the same thing andthen we're just going to have a conversation about this. How are your listeningskills? Give us an example of the time that you feel like you've reallyhelped or a time where you've really struggled understanding one of your reps. andnow our manager is going to do something similar, because our manager did skiplevel. One on ones. They have a really good sense of the peopleon your team and how they feel about you. And now we can triangulatea perspective here and we can come up with not necessarily a quantitative scale allthe time of one to ten. It would be nice if we could.But we have an action plan in place to say here's what you're doing well, here's a soft spot that we need to work on and here's how we'regoing to work on soft spot. It's you know, and we can createa pretty prescriptive plan to have them focus on something and then come back tous two weeks later and say, here's what I did to focus on thisand here's how it went, here's where it's still need help and here's whereI think I'm exiling. And so that's the way that we try to managethis. It's not exact, it's not going to be super scientific, it'snot going to necessarily show up in a dash board anywhere, but it isa really, really useful way for you to again keep your finger on thepulse of what your team is doing, what your individual managers are doing welland what or not, and what you can do, how you can steerthem in the right direction to sharpen up the soft spots of the person agreementagain. I mean the is funny because we made that mistake to think that, you know, training is one size fit solid and I think what wedoing now we much more we have a plan resource. I mean we're notthere yet, you know, we think achieving perfection for that sort of thingsis intangible. So, but you know, it's about trying to get better andbetter and and really what which really to do now is with the scopeof competencies is almost developing like a learning path that's will be tail out toeach individual. And then what we are looking at potentially is it is notjust the learning past base, also how do you bring checking point? I'dlike to get your views on that. You know, I know that we, we lots of organization, are using a conversational conversational intelligence platforms such asgoing, corus refract. I think the the guy that sells love to alsohave that component on their on their systems. Obvious. Are you using similar toolsin order to US test and measure your manager, obviously on the differentformat that you would do with a bdl, but to kind of kind of getan on the Sunning of what are the different sequences of the difference engagementsand how the conversation should be built for a tough conversation with a customer orto tough conversation with an a or a recruitment call and you are recruiting someone. Are you doing the right the recruitment conversation? Are you doing the rightthing? Indiana women, so and I know it. Obviously now we's coveredmost of the people we are managing. Technically. We manage them online.So it's not. You know, it's not easy offs any I think Iwould like to unders on your views on that, because this is something thatwe exploring and we don't know to go about it too much, and I'dlike to see if you've been using or...

...if you've seen anyone using conversation orintelligence platform, AI is in order to not just do the training of thosenewly recruited people, but that the ongoing development of those people. It's areally good thought exercise. I we do not. We do not use ourwe use a conversational intelligence tools, we don't use them for this purpose.It's interesting, though, and I think what we have done in the past, and it's much harder now, as you mentioned, in the Covid era, is we would sit in on one on once. We would that theywould have with their teammates or with a's or with managers or something like that. You just fly on the wall, Passive Observer. Just want to listento the conversation and get a sense of your style and provide feedback if wecan. And that's that's can't where. We haven't solved that in the virtualworld. So it is theely something that's missing. I will say what wedo use and I also sorry, I want to say I like your ideafor candidate phone calls, although I don't know if it's legal to record thecandidate phone call. So also we can do that and Eg get back toyou. You have to ask them if that wn't for they will do itand I think most of them are because we kind of explain to them atto score card and we've got the process. And again, you know, thereis two aspects of an interview. There is an aspect of an interviewwhich is I want to know a little bit more about yourself and that wedon't need to record. However, I've got some technical question ai to assessyour skill and your competencies and that that's my technical score card right. SoI'm a little perform at it for that. But the conversation about how we geton Uni and know that. So it depends. But for us it'sbeen, you know, it's been a fascinating process because without in the conversationalintelligence, as suggest now, we've been recording some calls like a kickoff colllike. So one of all, one of the big step of getting aclients going at a paradisis to go with the clients, with one another,founsation, and we had a kickoff agenda that has been defined for you.Okay, everybody knows it by heart. Everybody can go into the process documents. Fine, find the document, find the question. Now, find thatTom Plate for the playbook and all that sort of great deft. The problemwas that nobody was using it. Everybody was actually start right, sorry,everybody was making their own suit. Yeah, how it's like I'd something, butI'm gonna slightly do it in my way. Okay, so you teachme how to make the too and it's a tomato soup, right, butI'm going to add a little bit of Basil in Mine and then you're awill read a little bit of pepper. It is. So it's kind ofthe same stuff, but it tastes slightly different. And the prime you've gotthat you want to be like McDonald. You know when you've got to process, particularly when it's kickoff and it's clients relationship and stuff. You want yourship, your chips, to take the sign in different countries. You wantthe buggle to take the sign in different you want that consistency. And it'sfunny because what for really is that why you while everybody's trains Wu are,is that the manager, the the the will promote the long time ago kindof brought their own way of doing the kickoff, the slightly change the processand then the train and nose or court of manager themselves that kind of tookwhat they add and brought their own little things to it on when the sirtcalled, and then you end up with something at the end at Whoa.So people know what to do, but they didn't really do it effectively.And just the fact that now we have a session every sales there while wetake one kickoff from any we just pick qual the team. We record themall because the clients aout to record them in session that we record anyway,and rest of the team score you okay, and then we've got one session.Well, the rest of the team come and tell you. This iswhy as called. This is what Scollar, this is what was great, thisis what I've let on and just the fact that the guys know thatthey are being recorded and that they are being Scott by the appeals. Butbad giles made appeals has developed. But basically what we wanted, which isspot on quality, fantastic experience. They...

...want to look good. They don'tmake that kickoff, will be big upon it and I think he's draining asort of psychology of being better, of having people say, Oh, you'vedone that. We did not actually have in the process. I think that'sgreat and I'm going to use it. People feel so empowered. So that'swhat we look at. We thinking about doing it a little bit more askand I'm exploring so I'll let you know what I get on. But I'mhaving conversation with a few of the vendors that have already mentioned, and moreon the CS side to see how they are using it. All their currentsare using it on the ceside to like more like listening to the call ofdamn managers. Got The cold of doublitize yea, and and a lot ofpeople do it. So surely there is a way to use it. NowI'm trying to assess O that would work for organization and how do we makethe most of it? Because the solution on the chip right. So ifwe do it, we need to do it properly. So I'll let youknow more when I know. My very early stage, very embryonic stage,but excited about it. I love that. Yeah, and then to hear howindividual process is can be reinforced and evolved properly when they're recorded assess peersas managers as it's wonderful and if we can find a way to make thathappen in the managerial ranks. I think it's something that's pretty certain missing rightnow and that's sort of this style departure that you mentioned exists across all managerswhere they may they could go to the same exact training and come out ofthat and apply that training in a very different way and there's no real governance. It's hard. It's hard to ask a record of oneonone and review aoneonone and do the sorts of things. So there's got to be some solutions. So please, to keep you person yeah, it's I think you needa little bit of freestyle. I think it's important that people can can thinkfor themselves and can think on their feet, because if not, you end upwith people at will never criticize of an opinion about the process, andwe want people have an opinion with the process. If they don't agree withsomething, we've been doing f else and they convince us, we just goingto change it. You know, things got to evolve. So I thinkit's that it's having that straight balance and that there is no formula because that'sprobably an intangible again, something that you know, is difficult to assess.But coming back to the selection of his Dal so you know, obviously youmust have been a situation where you've got a fantastic a yell that you thinkwould be a good manager, but they don't really want to be any men. They want to become an a and they they may not, you maydisagree with the carrier path, and then you have you opposite, someone witha good average videa. They absolutely want to manager on your like you don'treally have the scale. So I guess what I'd like to Honorston is,do you a process so or what are your ideas of sorts around the selectionprocess of this video? That's said of it, the circumcise. How doyou make sure there is a knock on the effect of the rest of theDati? Because I'm walking with sky. Sky Started in March twenty, Istarted in February twenty. Kylie's getting the promotion before me. I mean withoutknowing and being part of the process, I may get onlid. So I'lldo you. So do things selection process and also avoiding this out of knockon effect. Psychology could not go on if I don't the rest of theteam and the gate that feel bad because they've not been selected or not evenbe asked to be selected. If you would right. It's a really goodquestion. There's no easy answer. I would say for the internal team promotions, for leveling promotions among str's individual contributors, we have four different levels. Thecriteria to graduate between those levels is completely transparents, very well defined.It's delivered to everybody. Everybody knows exactly what they need to do. Butthe timelines look like, what the criteria are, qualitative, quantitative, etcetera, etc. So intra a team, individual contributor leveling promotions, we havethat on lockdown and I would highly recommend you get penn the paper and definethose criterias to avoid what you mentioned. The you know, somebody started beforeme, but they leveled before me. How did that happen? And youcan just make a crystal clear by by having an all documented the jump fromstr into management as a trickier one, and this is one where all prefacesby saying like my role in the leadership...

...on the team and the stewardship ofthe team is not always to be liked by everybody. It is to berespected by everybody, but not necessarily always be liked every day. That's justnot possible. And so I say that I preface this because this is somethingthat I certainly got wrong in my early days as a manager, where Iwas so focused on being liked that I wasn't giving people the feedback that theyneeded to hear and I was avoiding tough conversations, and I realize that Iwas doing a major disservice to people for that reason. And so once Irealize that my role is to guide the team, to lead the team,to lead individuals and to be respected but not always be like, it changethe way that I thought about the answer to this question. And the answerto the question is, first and foremost, you have to really understand what isinternally motivating to people. What what is the fire in their belly?What is really exciting to them? What are they passionate about? Are theypassionate about maximizing their income, and some people are. Some people have goalsthey would need to support their families or they want to persuade, they wantto pursue a certain lifestyle or whatever it is, where financial income is thetop or near the top of their list. And if that is the primary motivator, nothing at all wrong with that. It probably just means that the managementpath isn't right for you because there are better and more better opportunities tomaximize income, or there are things like you know, if somebody tells me, and one of the things I look out for in a manager, asthey say, Hey, I just helped this person through their on boarding andwhen they got their first meeting, I was more excited about that than anymeeting I've booked my whole career. I'm like, okay, you are somebodywho thinks about helping people, who thinks about manage people, who thinks aboutother people's success as your own, and that to me is indicative of somebodywho is on in manager track. So understanding what's motivating to them, understandingwhat their definitions of success are, understanding what experiences they want to have intheir careers and why, asking these kind of broader questions that are not necessarilyabout what's Your Five Year Plan? What role do you want? That's notthe question here. The question is what's motivating to you and what experiences doyou want to have? And once I have this more nebulous conversation, Ican then help guide you down the path or paths that I think you shouldexplore. And that's what we do. So once we understand these motivators,we understand what's interesting and exciting to people, then we say, okay, basedon what you told me, here's a path that I think may beinteresting, or here's a handful of paths that may be interesting. Now howwere we going to go find out? Let's call the herd and let's figureout which one of them is the most applicable to you. So they maywant to be an account manager and account executive or sales engineer, and wego and get introductions to people doing those jobs and we set them up.We set up our individuals with those people so they can go assess it.Or if they say I want to be a people manager or in a Ican't decide. My motivators are kind of slip between them. We say golearn about what it's like to be a manager. Here's how set up thispath for you. Go learn what it's like to be in a will setup this path for you and they evaluate and they come back after doing alittle side project in both camps and they have a much better idea of whatthe data day job is. Now they may think they are fit for therole and I may disagree. And so now, circling back to how Istarted this monolog I have to be very honest with them and say I reallyappreciate your enthusiasm, I really appreciate your passion for this, but here's whereyou're not checking the box. Here is the effective as criteria, what wetalked through earlier Ay, and here's where I just have not seen you displaya capacity to do this handful of things. Now, understanding it's not your jobright now and there is capacity to improve, but you have to bereally honest with yourself about whether you can close these gaps. I'm not seeingit right now. I'm happy to help put together a plan that could closethe gap, but that's as much as I can do. I can't guaranteeyou're ever going to achieve one of these roles. So if the gaps areextremely wide, I have to be really honest with them and say this isnot going to happen for you just not going to happen. And here's why. If the gaps are really narrow, I can say you're very close.We just need to show up this, this and this, and here's howwe're going to do it. And so...

...that, honestly, that candor isreally really important. That feedback, that honest feedback to make sure that peopleknow where they stand at what they need to work on. Is How youcan make sure that everybody is operating on a level playing field and that everybodyunderstands why somebody is promoted and why they're not, because all this is happeningabove board. All that is very transparent. Yeah, this is this is exactlywhat we trying to urs. We trying to to to again a counton with this coope of competencies, you know, and and having the testand having a leadle bit more of a form wild process. You know youare. It's always very helpful when people speak about you know you you aredoing from vorism and we not do encourage and we're trying to do what's bestfor the company and, you know, with the means we've got available.Right, you know, it's and sometimes, yes, we don't make the rightdecision. You know, and I think it happened in the past,but you know it's nothing malicious. So it's and it's emotion is because I'vebeen the guy will try to go for a job and don't get it,I said, and I think it's difficult for people to accept that there issomeone better than them. However, I did could note of something that yousaid just I think is wonderful. Actually roached in capital in my patio.She you should not focus on being liked. This is something that we do nothave in our mentor or manager training and absolutely something I don't want tospeak to them about because I think sometimes you spend a lot of energy wearingsome sort of a social mask and trying to be someone you are not whenyou become a manager and and that's waste of time, you know, becauseyou've not instellcted for that social mask. We don't want you to have thatinfect you've been selected. But what song done is it and I think weare not bringing that in the depending. I don't think we've I don't thinkwe need the module about it, but it's more like Sofia. I thinkwe should address with them inescence. So I took it at that. Anotherknow that that took is you mentioned kind of shadowing managers or getting a betteron or something of the role of what they are doing. I think that'sreally good. I don't know how we would do it, but I thinkthis is something that the e was something at was probably very easy when wewere all in the office, because you know when he's doing. You KnowWhat Yours are mentor the other ups manager or the other coach is doing.Right, you see them doing it, you can just follow them or whatever, movies, your laptop around and whatever. Now we are walking from home.I'll do you know what the other guys are doing. What do youhow do you appreciate? What does that new and tice? I think weneed to have a little bit more of walk in term of that. Whatis the reality of the role and and what's the bad of the role,because I think sometimes people look at it and say, you know, Ijust want to promotion, just want to promotion. They don't realize the walkthat will come with the promotion, the pain and DFOLT and now much knockdown they will get from it because it's new to them. And and Ithink we should not look at it as this shiny thing, but so canof very be very clear about the less pretty side of being a manager atthe out no question. So I'm trying to think about how we would doit. But you, you may, you give me some food fall solio. There you go. And I want to add a little more nuance tothis, like the versus respected sort of paradigm, because they're not mutually exclusive, and I at the way I frame it, and I may not havesaid this earlier, Ray is that you can't be liked every day, butin the long term, if they do respect you, they probably also likeyou, but they appreciate you, and it's really important to think that way. And really this just happened recently where I had to have a difficult conversationand with one of my as her managers, and I had to tell him,basically, you're not doing your good and I had to say like hewas making a few not excuses necessarily, but rationalizing a few decisions that hewas making as to why he wasn't involving himself more making something happen, andI basically had to cut him off and say this is your job. Yourjob is to do the things that you're rationalizing not doing right now. Sogo sit in these one on ones,...

...go make this happen with your teamand with the a's that you're working with. Otherwise you're not doing your job.And this wasn't a fun conversation to have. And it was a littlewasn't he didn't necessarily, but I was a bit more pointed that I thatI am here and maybe not emotional necessarily, but more direct, and he Ihung up and I was like man, that was that was the toughest conversationI've ever had with him. I've known him for five years. Buthe called me later that day and he was like thank you, thank you, I needed to hear that. You busted through a little bit of aShell and some excuses I was making for myself and I appreciate it. Sowe left the phone call. I left the phone call thinking, man,he he doesn't like me. You know, I just ruined his day, andthen I heard Mac from him later to say thank you. Not onlydo I do, I like and appreciate that, but the feeling that Igot is like he's he respects me, he knows that I have his bestinterests in mindset. I'm pushing him because I care about him. I pushinghim forward growth because I have a lens into what he needs to do thatmaybe he doesn't have and I can give him feedback that he's not going tohear anywhere else. And so the I would just want to re emphasize thatbeing liked and respected, or not necessary, really mutually exclusive. If you optimizeher respect first, you'll probably get being liked as a byproduct. Hundredperson is for fascinating that you're saying that. So we we a few weeks backwe did a session, a podcast with with Wendy Arras, with theVPM A at gone. So she's newly, newly the new VPMA felst Vpam meon the ground at Gong and we spoke at length about a style ofmanagement which is rady called Kendall. So it's called radical send and what means? It means you know that I respect you. Okay, I hope you'llrespect me, but they will be no idea. If I've got to deliversomething, I'm not going to put makeup on that Shit. You know it'sgoing to be straight in. I'm going to tell you as it is andyou should not ta keep the wrong way, because we're trying to make PROGRESSI arethey will be friction, but you will be positive friction. You mayfeel bad about something and hopefully I will never cross a line, but whenI say something, when I need to say something, I will have totell you. And as for your personal development, and I think that's particularlytrue when you really because really, when you promote someone, I think it'sa tradeoff. You know, you really do something messy for the carrier,okay, and at peas, that's what I believe. I don't know whatthey believe. They probably look at their basic salary and stuff. For me, I just lie better at night knowing that we promoted twenty five people thisyear, or even more than that. Okay, the fact that we makean impact in their career, that we change their life, we changed theway they will them to grow. We then, you know, you cansetting and you look at what they don't know as to gird of months,is really that. That's what get me excited. But you can't do thatwithout friction. You can't grow without pain. You can grow without a moment whereyou doubt yourself. You can grow without a moment where you say aboutalready don't like the way you spoke to me, but then you wake upthe next day you're like, well, actually, maybe the form was notgreat, but the content, God is rights. But I need to welcomethat. And that's it takes a big man for your colleagues so who tocall you and thank you for it. I think that's that's great. Youknow, you definitely developed a great relationship there, because it happens to methis week as well. I went in a little bit with one of ourone of our gays, been with us for seven year els, and hethank me for it's a look, that's what I need it. That's whatI did. Is Because, you know, it was just that not kicking theball. I just, you know, maybe a bit of a bit toomuch success recently attracted a bit of complacency, and you just put meback on the rail and and I love you for that and I appreciate that. So I think sometimes it's not that we want it to be necessary andI think you should not be done freely and it's got to be done whenthe time is right. But it is important to have that friction. IsImportant to put a line on the sentence, a look you you're not doing whatyou supposed to do. Or let me refrain what you are doing andtell you why. You Start Right and this conversation, in my opinion,a fee. Try Not to have too many of them, because another wasan joy a ball. But I like I like what you're saying as well, because you very honest about the feeling you have when you end up thatfood and you had that conversation. You Stop Qushing Yourself. Are I beento Ush? No, have I let...

...my passion take the best out ofme? You know right the you know it's like the the Engel on oneside the devil on the other side, that that guy's been speaking often tous. What have I done? And it's good at that gay call youback, because he that probably kind of emputy to feel better about it aswell, which is which is very important. We getting to the end of theconversation, which is an absolute shame. I think we could have. Wecould have carried on forever. But what are usually asked at the end, at the end of the conversation, is two things really is people maywant to get in touch with you is not to carry on this conversation orto discuss about how they could engage with clary and get your support to havebetter visibility in that by plan forecast its attract so if people wants to getin touch with you can, what is the best way to engage? Likelke, then please just look me up, Kyle Coleman. Unlike the and Ipost pretty frequently. Try a handful of times per week on topics mostly aroundtop of an all star and a stuff, a little bit around management philosophies andthings like that. And then, if you're interested in finding out moreabout Clary at Cela Ri Clarycom and requested them out, our team will bein touch and we'll get your all the information you need. That's wonderful.While it was an absolute pleasure to have you on the showcarn thank you verymuch. Thank you so much for the time where was an absolute thrill tobe here. Appreciate it. Thank you. You've been listening. To be tobe read the new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so muchfor listening. Until next time,.

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