B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 1 year ago

115: SDR Manager Effectiveness - 4 Keys for Success w/ Kyle Coleman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of SDR managers become SDR managers simply because they were very good reps. They excelled at their roles as SDRs, and so by virtue of their skill, they’re promoted to be an SDR manager.

Which is great for them. But often, what doesn’t get trained are simply expectations. What is expected of an SDR manager is very different from what is expected of an SDR. It requires a different mindset. A different focus. How can SDR managers set their teams up for success?

On this episode of B2B Revenue Acceleration, we talk with Kyle Coleman. Kyle is the VP of Revenue Growth at Clari and was kind enough to come on the podcast to talk about some great topics this episode.

Some of the topics included the 4 key things SDR leaders need to be doing to build successful teams, the soft skills that SDR leaders need to have in order to succeed, why we see SDRs more often progress into AE roles than SDR manager roles, and how to identify if an SDR is a good candidate to progress to an SDR manager.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for B2B Revenue Acceleration in your favorite podcast player.

You were listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated to helping software executives stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's give into the show. Hi, welcome to beat. To be a reve in new generation. My name is onion with Kier, and yet today we sky cord man, VP Revenue Growth Clary. How are you doing today? Guide, I am living the dream. How are you doing? Ray, very good. Thank you, very very good. So today we're tooking as Dr Manager Effectiveness, but before we get into the top peak, would you manage just giving a little bit of background to yourself kind as well as the company Hewers and carry? Yeah, absolutely. So. I currently am at Clary, but I'll get a moment. Prior to joining Clarry, I was at a company called looker for six years. I was the sixth employee. This is intelligence company basing California. Grew the SER team from myself to about sixty five people globally. As a company grew to about eight hundred or so employees over the course of six years, got to about a hundred ten million in revenue and then was acquired by Google for two and a half billion dollars in two thousand and nineteen. Then jumped over to Clary, where I lead sales development, sales enablement, value engineering as well as demand generation, so the teams that are responsible both for creating and accelerating pipeline for both our new logo business as well as our customer expansion and retention business. And what Clary does? It clary is a revenue operations platform that makes all of your revenue processes as connected and optimized as possible so that you know where you're going to lay and before it happens, you know in week one of the quarter higher court is going to turn out, and that just makes life a lot easier, both for private and public companies. Yeah, sounds good. Replacing the taking away the pain off ocassing in a way, I guess. which take exactly right. And one of the one of the reason no one of the fight that trigger that conversation they release is suppose that you put on Linkedin, and that's interesting. Piece was about, as Dr Manager, I thinktiveness and you are laighteen that post. Four points that you be Funda Mentor for as Dr Letails to be successful. Would you mind just taking audience through the four points and explain briefly which one of them mean from your perspective. Yeah, I will answer your question here Ray, but I want to give you a little bit of background, which is a lot of strs managers become managers just by virtue of having been really good reps, and the same is true, of course, on the saleside with a kind of executives that turn into sales managers. And often what doesn't get trained are simply expectations. What is now expected of them that they're in a management role. It's very different for being a high performing individual contributor and it really refers a different mindset at different focus, a different time horizons, different goals, all these sorts of things. And so I realized that this was the case with a handful of the managers that we have on the team here because they had been promoted. They were strs for two plus years each and they were excellent team leads. People looked up to them, their process managers, all the sort of things. So it's a pretty natural evolution for them to become management people on our team. However, they were first time managers and they didn't have a ton of understanding of what it took to be successful in the role, and so I thought that it was a disservice to them to not give them more prescriptive understanding of what it takes to be successful. And that's how this manager effectiveness exercise was born. Created the scorecard that we had them evaluate ourselves against, we evaluate them against, and I created the gaps that exist and now we know what we need to work on for each of them over, you know, the Munth and quarters, so that they can continually improve and continually become a more effective manager. I feel the pain. I feel the pain guy, and the reason why I feel depend probably some mismiling. When we are going through the the intro of way, the fall from the mentors. We've been very big on the promotion from within to Paratics, bit like a Papa Jones or McDonald relative, and pretty much order of our managers even get ay now we're just to set up the podcast today with our marketing director. They all coming...

...from an is dal position, so they were stopped at the bottom. So what you end up getting, you get. You end up creating a fantastic card show and people want us only read the business inside out, but my God, the gross pain can be very painful and I think for us, with we tried to do is even before the promotion, is setting up expectation. So actually, right now we're going to running so size of competency frame wall, because I may be gone things that you can would be a fantastic manager and you would become Vinci also that's you're are frontestic manager. And for some reason we do it and he's becomes very painfully he doesn't walk out. And what we don't want to do is to build a good resource and and it's our job as the manager, of the potential manager, of the coming of manager, to find the right possible just people are right. So yeah, I do feel so much what you are saying. Very interested to the move. Would the fall fundamental, the end of the detenant. There you go. Yeah, I'm not surprised that here we're aligned. I mean, this is a pretty common problem for growth companies. So they answer the question that you asked about what our kind of a categories that we're evaluating our managers against. What defines SDR management effectiveness to us? And there are four main categories. The first one is making the team successful, and this includes things like people development, you know, helping people grow their careers, identifying what growth paths they're interested in and ensuring that they're prepared for this growth pads. It's things like effectively running team meetings. You know, this is a major gap for a lot of people that are promoted from an individual and to a manager role. They've no idea how to run meetings, that to prepare, what data points are interesting, how to communicate key things, all these sorts of things. It also includes things like how to influence behavior and how to motivate other people, and again, these are more leadership capacity things. This is not just management, it's also leadership and if I were to point out a pretty big gap between an individual moving into a people manager role, it is developing those leadership skills. And so this first category of making the team successful really is centered on leadership. I think expectation is is quite interesting. The big gap that we've seen is people kind of being a good sense spells of managing their own business, basically the person they manages themselves and obviously, when you all responsible for all the people to deliver, and for me that was a massive cross paine because I was Oh my God, I need to change now. So yeah, hundred percent. And and another thing that was probably always see being a little bit more of Gross Spain is on the funding out to adapt your communication with leadership. Okay, what we need to show, and while you are probably much better at that because we kind of tell, we need to see. I think he's setting up the expectations of what needs to happen and what it means to be a manager for you personality, but also your relationship with people, because your relationship will involve you've got new managers, you've got set up your relationship with them. So it's again music to males and it's a good segue into one of the other four principles or pillars that were evaluating our managers against his cross Functional Leadership Acumen. How good are they at doing the things very that you just mentioned? Managing up to this the more singing people. How are they reporting on progress? How are they giving data read outs that? How are they making sure that the right people cross functionally have insights into the right things at the right times? But it's also managing across you know, if you're an ser manager, how do you work well? Now with an AE manager? It's very different. Than working with an individual a and there are different considerations, there are different things or different topics that you need to be well versed on, and so that kind of cross functional leadership is another really, really important thing that you make sure that you're really prescriptive about training your team on. So this is the first two categories. Is leadership among kind of down the chain of command, and then across and up the chain of command. Yeah, the third and I think probably most natural pillar is process management. So if you are an individual contributor and you are promoted into a managerial role, it's probably because you...

...have a pretty good eye for process your organized, your efficient, your proficient with all the things that you need to do, you understand all the all the tools and technology. And now, in a managerial role you have to be able to document your process if you haven't already, and you have to be able to train on this processes, and so that sort of process management is super, super important. I don't know if I've ever seen a successful on frontline manager who's not really really well versed on the processes that it takes to be successful. In fact, you know, speaking about the busy team of promoting from within, we actually get a lot of fantastic ideas from the ground up in time of of what you just mentioned, which is the processes and making sure that people and get the right data right time, that we provide them with the right input, with desire off from them, but also in them, of ultimating processes. It's often coming from the bottom of the company grow you see less and less what's opening on the ground. That's good for people like me or my business partner with the seat of the business. I mean's don't know, five years ago, six years ago. Free equip the newly promoted manager with confidence and also tell them, look, you're going to make mistakes, but we want to carry you need to do new thing. You have processes that we will set that we will teach you, that you've got to do. But when something is not walking, there is two things you can do. Is Look up and expect something to come from us or try something. Yeah, okay, and if you try something and new Fain, we're going to learn all together and we're going to make the rest of it him long from it. Oh, you can try something and see it and become a hero. Okay, so you use all alone, you become a hero. But don't look up because we don't have all the processes. So we trying to really empower them to think on their fit and we believe that they are the best people to do it because they are the people that are in the trenches literally just now. So yeah, it's important for that process. Expect we think it's about them getting the expertise of knowing our basic process, but he's also developing down expects and we've got so much coming from the team, and that's for them. Is Creating legacy which in return make them feel fantastic, which in return may give them even more prospect to progress. And for us, from a selfish perspective, they feel important, they feel invested, so they stick with us. I love that and I couldn't agree more. And again, I'm really useful. Segway into the fourth and final category here, which is kind of hard to care arise together or lumped together, so we just call it intangibles, which are exactly what you just said. Read the autonomy. Are they able to think for themselves, so they able to create something new from nothing? Critical thinking skills. As an individual, you're probably very good at being assigned a task and figuring out how to solve it. As a manager, you have to both identify what needs to be solved and you have to solve it, and that is a very, very important step in critical thinking skills. intenigibles also include things like you listening skills, and you have to train. And again, most individual high performing reps are great listeners, but it's a different ball game when you're managing people and not just managing deals. And then one other thing I want to mention is is curiosity, and I think this this goes really nicely to what you mentioned. Ray. If you're really curious about the process, if you're really curious about your people, the personas the company itself, the product, the solution you're selling, it's extremely important for you to have that curiosity so that you can do exactly what you said. You can create this experiments, you can create hypotheses, you can test this hypotheses, you can do readoubts on what you learn, you can admit to failure, you can admit to success. It's really, really important. So those are the four pillars and we could spend many more minutes and hours probably unpacking these, but I think at a high level it's a really useful framework to think about how to evaluate your team. And then again, I don't want to. I can't stress this enough you. The onus is on you, as a manager of managers, to make sure that these expectations are really well articulated and documented and that you're doing everything you need to you to train your team on this doesn't just happen by accident. It happens, like anything else, by intent, and so you have to be intentional about definding these things, and that's how...

...you say your team up for success. A undred Possi in agreement with your in the intangible. In fact, this is probably intangible that are the most difficult to assess if you don't have a framework to us at them. And you know probably, for example, you know listening and speaking. I think the emotion is changing drastically when you are videaized. The ore valsus becoming a manager. You know we we actually train or gay to coach. We've got a training program with an External Company called the sells impact academy around coach and the art of asking question to open up a resource, to open up a colleague, versus telling you what to do. The out of making people take the decision for you, and these are probably the dose kind of self skill where you've got people who've got the empathy, right emotional intelligence, the rat curiousity, which for me, are things that come from your education. You know, you can't. I can't teach someone to become curious right youse a welcome curious or you've been developed by your authorency and your education to become curious, or you are not joious. I'm not going to make you curious. I don't think is. I don't think I can. I can't make you more emotional intelligence. I can make you feel that you can walk on it, but you know, it's like everything. You've got strength weaknesses, and what you should do is obviously trying to get better at your weaknesses, but I think most people that it should focus on their strength. You know, I love the intangible and do skills. What we try to do? We actually try to build a team of avengels. We've got one day at one day that can go on down the water, the other one get great and get fretty younger. Ideos are one can do whatever, because sometimes finding the full package is a bit difficult. Okay, but if we can find someone that is ide emotional intelligence, have a good listening, ears and everything. Maybe someone will have more of a manager role towards the resources on the compaign co one of got more criticals thinking, maybe a bit more curiosity or more assertiveness, maybe more like a client type of day. But then we can pair them to work together and let them learn from each other. And sometimes finding the full page has been difficult and obviously you know you as we grow. Now we are seconding the roles, but when we will promoting the first manager? You had to be a Swiss some my knife. You need to be able to recruit, need to be able to enable, you need to be able to coach, you need to be able to deal with clients, you need to be able to custom or success, you need to be able to report up, report down, manage expectation. And that's a little bit too much for resource to text. What we really is about. The years this intangible are probably the most difficult because there's the thing that you can't teach people and you kind that sort of group where everybody feels good because while they may not be the full package and they know it, because you do three hundred and sixty interviews and you you do, you do the competency framewalk. You know what your strength thought and you know that you ought to tie rod something. So we start trying to be like a Jakeo for trade. We tried to get our guys to be like a easy experience of that. You Won't Ski Coaching Session. Go to Josh's probably one of the best coach we've gotten the team. You know. So do intens you what are very interesting. I'd like to know two things. I'd like to know how you've been measuring them and I'd like to know your feedback or so. And you alsoits on what we've been doing, which is kind of trying to that assemble a team of a venge of the Elso I think somewhere does it a bit of a thing. It's just like any team. You know, sports metaphors are really useful here. You don't build a successful sports team by hiring a group of leaden people that are all really good at the same thing. You need people that are specialists at certain things. You need a strengths to complement each other's weaknesses and that's how you build a great team. So we were totally aligned on that front and recognizing what people strengths are. While improving the weak areas is really important. That way you can kind of have the best of both worlds. Even know who the go to person is for training and onboarding. You know who the go to person is for growth pads and training, for what's next in the career development standpoint. You know who the right person...

...is to go and have a difficult conversation with as an individual, a or sales manager like you know, and you can learn from each other that way. So it's really, really useful. A lot of people make a terrible mistake of hiring for a profile that's the same exact person and then you end up with a team that looks, feels, acts and thinks the same way and that there's nothing sure to stunt your growth then having a group of people that thinks the same way. So we are eye on that point right now. Your first question, how do we measure the intangibles? It's hard because they're intangible. So it's not like it's not like you can assign, you know, any really specific score. It really I mentioned this before. I'll really I'll restate it. We ask our managers to self assess, say, okay, here's the list of intangibles here's a definition of what they mean. How do you feel like you've been doing against these over the last six weeks or over the last three months, wherever the time Pritin is, and why? So give us a qualitative statement against these qualitative goals and let us know where you think you are now. At the same time, your manager is going to do the same thing and then we're just going to have a conversation about this. How are your listening skills? Give us an example of the time that you feel like you've really helped or a time where you've really struggled understanding one of your reps. and now our manager is going to do something similar, because our manager did skip level. One on ones. They have a really good sense of the people on your team and how they feel about you. And now we can triangulate a perspective here and we can come up with not necessarily a quantitative scale all the time of one to ten. It would be nice if we could. But we have an action plan in place to say here's what you're doing well, here's a soft spot that we need to work on and here's how we're going to work on soft spot. It's you know, and we can create a pretty prescriptive plan to have them focus on something and then come back to us two weeks later and say, here's what I did to focus on this and here's how it went, here's where it's still need help and here's where I think I'm exiling. And so that's the way that we try to manage this. It's not exact, it's not going to be super scientific, it's not going to necessarily show up in a dash board anywhere, but it is a really, really useful way for you to again keep your finger on the pulse of what your team is doing, what your individual managers are doing well and what or not, and what you can do, how you can steer them in the right direction to sharpen up the soft spots of the person agreement again. I mean the is funny because we made that mistake to think that, you know, training is one size fit solid and I think what we doing now we much more we have a plan resource. I mean we're not there yet, you know, we think achieving perfection for that sort of things is intangible. So, but you know, it's about trying to get better and better and and really what which really to do now is with the scope of competencies is almost developing like a learning path that's will be tail out to each individual. And then what we are looking at potentially is it is not just the learning past base, also how do you bring checking point? I'd like to get your views on that. You know, I know that we, we lots of organization, are using a conversational conversational intelligence platforms such as going, corus refract. I think the the guy that sells love to also have that component on their on their systems. Obvious. Are you using similar tools in order to US test and measure your manager, obviously on the different format that you would do with a bdl, but to kind of kind of get an on the Sunning of what are the different sequences of the difference engagements and how the conversation should be built for a tough conversation with a customer or to tough conversation with an a or a recruitment call and you are recruiting someone. Are you doing the right the recruitment conversation? Are you doing the right thing? Indiana women, so and I know it. Obviously now we's covered most of the people we are managing. Technically. We manage them online. So it's not. You know, it's not easy offs any I think I would like to unders on your views on that, because this is something that we exploring and we don't know to go about it too much, and I'd like to see if you've been using or...

...if you've seen anyone using conversation or intelligence platform, AI is in order to not just do the training of those newly recruited people, but that the ongoing development of those people. It's a really good thought exercise. I we do not. We do not use our we use a conversational intelligence tools, we don't use them for this purpose. It's interesting, though, and I think what we have done in the past, and it's much harder now, as you mentioned, in the Covid era, is we would sit in on one on once. We would that they would have with their teammates or with a's or with managers or something like that. You just fly on the wall, Passive Observer. Just want to listen to the conversation and get a sense of your style and provide feedback if we can. And that's that's can't where. We haven't solved that in the virtual world. So it is theely something that's missing. I will say what we do use and I also sorry, I want to say I like your idea for candidate phone calls, although I don't know if it's legal to record the candidate phone call. So also we can do that and Eg get back to you. You have to ask them if that wn't for they will do it and I think most of them are because we kind of explain to them at to score card and we've got the process. And again, you know, there is two aspects of an interview. There is an aspect of an interview which is I want to know a little bit more about yourself and that we don't need to record. However, I've got some technical question ai to assess your skill and your competencies and that that's my technical score card right. So I'm a little perform at it for that. But the conversation about how we get on Uni and know that. So it depends. But for us it's been, you know, it's been a fascinating process because without in the conversational intelligence, as suggest now, we've been recording some calls like a kickoff coll like. So one of all, one of the big step of getting a clients going at a paradisis to go with the clients, with one another, founsation, and we had a kickoff agenda that has been defined for you. Okay, everybody knows it by heart. Everybody can go into the process documents. Fine, find the document, find the question. Now, find that Tom Plate for the playbook and all that sort of great deft. The problem was that nobody was using it. Everybody was actually start right, sorry, everybody was making their own suit. Yeah, how it's like I'd something, but I'm gonna slightly do it in my way. Okay, so you teach me how to make the too and it's a tomato soup, right, but I'm going to add a little bit of Basil in Mine and then you're a will read a little bit of pepper. It is. So it's kind of the same stuff, but it tastes slightly different. And the prime you've got that you want to be like McDonald. You know when you've got to process, particularly when it's kickoff and it's clients relationship and stuff. You want your ship, your chips, to take the sign in different countries. You want the buggle to take the sign in different you want that consistency. And it's funny because what for really is that why you while everybody's trains Wu are, is that the manager, the the the will promote the long time ago kind of brought their own way of doing the kickoff, the slightly change the process and then the train and nose or court of manager themselves that kind of took what they add and brought their own little things to it on when the sirt called, and then you end up with something at the end at Whoa. So people know what to do, but they didn't really do it effectively. And just the fact that now we have a session every sales there while we take one kickoff from any we just pick qual the team. We record them all because the clients aout to record them in session that we record anyway, and rest of the team score you okay, and then we've got one session. Well, the rest of the team come and tell you. This is why as called. This is what Scollar, this is what was great, this is what I've let on and just the fact that the guys know that they are being recorded and that they are being Scott by the appeals. But bad giles made appeals has developed. But basically what we wanted, which is spot on quality, fantastic experience. They...

...want to look good. They don't make that kickoff, will be big upon it and I think he's draining a sort of psychology of being better, of having people say, Oh, you've done that. We did not actually have in the process. I think that's great and I'm going to use it. People feel so empowered. So that's what we look at. We thinking about doing it a little bit more ask and I'm exploring so I'll let you know what I get on. But I'm having conversation with a few of the vendors that have already mentioned, and more on the CS side to see how they are using it. All their currents are using it on the ceside to like more like listening to the call of damn managers. Got The cold of doublitize yea, and and a lot of people do it. So surely there is a way to use it. Now I'm trying to assess O that would work for organization and how do we make the most of it? Because the solution on the chip right. So if we do it, we need to do it properly. So I'll let you know more when I know. My very early stage, very embryonic stage, but excited about it. I love that. Yeah, and then to hear how individual process is can be reinforced and evolved properly when they're recorded assess peers as managers as it's wonderful and if we can find a way to make that happen in the managerial ranks. I think it's something that's pretty certain missing right now and that's sort of this style departure that you mentioned exists across all managers where they may they could go to the same exact training and come out of that and apply that training in a very different way and there's no real governance. It's hard. It's hard to ask a record of oneonone and review a oneonone and do the sorts of things. So there's got to be some solutions. So please, to keep you person yeah, it's I think you need a little bit of freestyle. I think it's important that people can can think for themselves and can think on their feet, because if not, you end up with people at will never criticize of an opinion about the process, and we want people have an opinion with the process. If they don't agree with something, we've been doing f else and they convince us, we just going to change it. You know, things got to evolve. So I think it's that it's having that straight balance and that there is no formula because that's probably an intangible again, something that you know, is difficult to assess. But coming back to the selection of his Dal so you know, obviously you must have been a situation where you've got a fantastic a yell that you think would be a good manager, but they don't really want to be any men. They want to become an a and they they may not, you may disagree with the carrier path, and then you have you opposite, someone with a good average videa. They absolutely want to manager on your like you don't really have the scale. So I guess what I'd like to Honorston is, do you a process so or what are your ideas of sorts around the selection process of this video? That's said of it, the circumcise. How do you make sure there is a knock on the effect of the rest of the Dati? Because I'm walking with sky. Sky Started in March twenty, I started in February twenty. Kylie's getting the promotion before me. I mean without knowing and being part of the process, I may get onlid. So I'll do you. So do things selection process and also avoiding this out of knock on effect. Psychology could not go on if I don't the rest of the team and the gate that feel bad because they've not been selected or not even be asked to be selected. If you would right. It's a really good question. There's no easy answer. I would say for the internal team promotions, for leveling promotions among str's individual contributors, we have four different levels. The criteria to graduate between those levels is completely transparents, very well defined. It's delivered to everybody. Everybody knows exactly what they need to do. But the timelines look like, what the criteria are, qualitative, quantitative, etcetera, etc. So intra a team, individual contributor leveling promotions, we have that on lockdown and I would highly recommend you get penn the paper and define those criterias to avoid what you mentioned. The you know, somebody started before me, but they leveled before me. How did that happen? And you can just make a crystal clear by by having an all documented the jump from str into management as a trickier one, and this is one where all prefaces by saying like my role in the leadership...

...on the team and the stewardship of the team is not always to be liked by everybody. It is to be respected by everybody, but not necessarily always be liked every day. That's just not possible. And so I say that I preface this because this is something that I certainly got wrong in my early days as a manager, where I was so focused on being liked that I wasn't giving people the feedback that they needed to hear and I was avoiding tough conversations, and I realize that I was doing a major disservice to people for that reason. And so once I realize that my role is to guide the team, to lead the team, to lead individuals and to be respected but not always be like, it change the way that I thought about the answer to this question. And the answer to the question is, first and foremost, you have to really understand what is internally motivating to people. What what is the fire in their belly? What is really exciting to them? What are they passionate about? Are they passionate about maximizing their income, and some people are. Some people have goals they would need to support their families or they want to persuade, they want to pursue a certain lifestyle or whatever it is, where financial income is the top or near the top of their list. And if that is the primary motivator, nothing at all wrong with that. It probably just means that the management path isn't right for you because there are better and more better opportunities to maximize income, or there are things like you know, if somebody tells me, and one of the things I look out for in a manager, as they say, Hey, I just helped this person through their on boarding and when they got their first meeting, I was more excited about that than any meeting I've booked my whole career. I'm like, okay, you are somebody who thinks about helping people, who thinks about manage people, who thinks about other people's success as your own, and that to me is indicative of somebody who is on in manager track. So understanding what's motivating to them, understanding what their definitions of success are, understanding what experiences they want to have in their careers and why, asking these kind of broader questions that are not necessarily about what's Your Five Year Plan? What role do you want? That's not the question here. The question is what's motivating to you and what experiences do you want to have? And once I have this more nebulous conversation, I can then help guide you down the path or paths that I think you should explore. And that's what we do. So once we understand these motivators, we understand what's interesting and exciting to people, then we say, okay, based on what you told me, here's a path that I think may be interesting, or here's a handful of paths that may be interesting. Now how were we going to go find out? Let's call the herd and let's figure out which one of them is the most applicable to you. So they may want to be an account manager and account executive or sales engineer, and we go and get introductions to people doing those jobs and we set them up. We set up our individuals with those people so they can go assess it. Or if they say I want to be a people manager or in a I can't decide. My motivators are kind of slip between them. We say go learn about what it's like to be a manager. Here's how set up this path for you. Go learn what it's like to be in a will set up this path for you and they evaluate and they come back after doing a little side project in both camps and they have a much better idea of what the data day job is. Now they may think they are fit for the role and I may disagree. And so now, circling back to how I started this monolog I have to be very honest with them and say I really appreciate your enthusiasm, I really appreciate your passion for this, but here's where you're not checking the box. Here is the effective as criteria, what we talked through earlier Ay, and here's where I just have not seen you display a capacity to do this handful of things. Now, understanding it's not your job right now and there is capacity to improve, but you have to be really honest with yourself about whether you can close these gaps. I'm not seeing it right now. I'm happy to help put together a plan that could close the gap, but that's as much as I can do. I can't guarantee you're ever going to achieve one of these roles. So if the gaps are extremely wide, I have to be really honest with them and say this is not going to happen for you just not going to happen. And here's why. If the gaps are really narrow, I can say you're very close. We just need to show up this, this and this, and here's how we're going to do it. And so...

...that, honestly, that candor is really really important. That feedback, that honest feedback to make sure that people know where they stand at what they need to work on. Is How you can make sure that everybody is operating on a level playing field and that everybody understands why somebody is promoted and why they're not, because all this is happening above board. All that is very transparent. Yeah, this is this is exactly what we trying to urs. We trying to to to again a count on with this coope of competencies, you know, and and having the test and having a leadle bit more of a form wild process. You know you are. It's always very helpful when people speak about you know you you are doing from vorism and we not do encourage and we're trying to do what's best for the company and, you know, with the means we've got available. Right, you know, it's and sometimes, yes, we don't make the right decision. You know, and I think it happened in the past, but you know it's nothing malicious. So it's and it's emotion is because I've been the guy will try to go for a job and don't get it, I said, and I think it's difficult for people to accept that there is someone better than them. However, I did could note of something that you said just I think is wonderful. Actually roached in capital in my patio. She you should not focus on being liked. This is something that we do not have in our mentor or manager training and absolutely something I don't want to speak to them about because I think sometimes you spend a lot of energy wearing some sort of a social mask and trying to be someone you are not when you become a manager and and that's waste of time, you know, because you've not instellcted for that social mask. We don't want you to have that infect you've been selected. But what song done is it and I think we are not bringing that in the depending. I don't think we've I don't think we need the module about it, but it's more like Sofia. I think we should address with them inescence. So I took it at that. Another know that that took is you mentioned kind of shadowing managers or getting a better on or something of the role of what they are doing. I think that's really good. I don't know how we would do it, but I think this is something that the e was something at was probably very easy when we were all in the office, because you know when he's doing. You Know What Yours are mentor the other ups manager or the other coach is doing. Right, you see them doing it, you can just follow them or whatever, movies, your laptop around and whatever. Now we are walking from home. I'll do you know what the other guys are doing. What do you how do you appreciate? What does that new and tice? I think we need to have a little bit more of walk in term of that. What is the reality of the role and and what's the bad of the role, because I think sometimes people look at it and say, you know, I just want to promotion, just want to promotion. They don't realize the walk that will come with the promotion, the pain and DFOLT and now much knock down they will get from it because it's new to them. And and I think we should not look at it as this shiny thing, but so can of very be very clear about the less pretty side of being a manager at the out no question. So I'm trying to think about how we would do it. But you, you may, you give me some food fall solio. There you go. And I want to add a little more nuance to this, like the versus respected sort of paradigm, because they're not mutually exclusive, and I at the way I frame it, and I may not have said this earlier, Ray is that you can't be liked every day, but in the long term, if they do respect you, they probably also like you, but they appreciate you, and it's really important to think that way. And really this just happened recently where I had to have a difficult conversation and with one of my as her managers, and I had to tell him, basically, you're not doing your good and I had to say like he was making a few not excuses necessarily, but rationalizing a few decisions that he was making as to why he wasn't involving himself more making something happen, and I basically had to cut him off and say this is your job. Your job is to do the things that you're rationalizing not doing right now. So go sit in these one on ones,...

...go make this happen with your team and with the a's that you're working with. Otherwise you're not doing your job. And this wasn't a fun conversation to have. And it was a little wasn't he didn't necessarily, but I was a bit more pointed that I that I am here and maybe not emotional necessarily, but more direct, and he I hung up and I was like man, that was that was the toughest conversation I've ever had with him. I've known him for five years. But he called me later that day and he was like thank you, thank you, I needed to hear that. You busted through a little bit of a Shell and some excuses I was making for myself and I appreciate it. So we left the phone call. I left the phone call thinking, man, he he doesn't like me. You know, I just ruined his day, and then I heard Mac from him later to say thank you. Not only do I do, I like and appreciate that, but the feeling that I got is like he's he respects me, he knows that I have his best interests in mindset. I'm pushing him because I care about him. I pushing him forward growth because I have a lens into what he needs to do that maybe he doesn't have and I can give him feedback that he's not going to hear anywhere else. And so the I would just want to re emphasize that being liked and respected, or not necessary, really mutually exclusive. If you optimize her respect first, you'll probably get being liked as a byproduct. Hundred person is for fascinating that you're saying that. So we we a few weeks back we did a session, a podcast with with Wendy Arras, with the VPM A at gone. So she's newly, newly the new VPMA felst Vpam me on the ground at Gong and we spoke at length about a style of management which is rady called Kendall. So it's called radical send and what means? It means you know that I respect you. Okay, I hope you'll respect me, but they will be no idea. If I've got to deliver something, I'm not going to put makeup on that Shit. You know it's going to be straight in. I'm going to tell you as it is and you should not ta keep the wrong way, because we're trying to make PROGRESSI are they will be friction, but you will be positive friction. You may feel bad about something and hopefully I will never cross a line, but when I say something, when I need to say something, I will have to tell you. And as for your personal development, and I think that's particularly true when you really because really, when you promote someone, I think it's a tradeoff. You know, you really do something messy for the carrier, okay, and at peas, that's what I believe. I don't know what they believe. They probably look at their basic salary and stuff. For me, I just lie better at night knowing that we promoted twenty five people this year, or even more than that. Okay, the fact that we make an impact in their career, that we change their life, we changed the way they will them to grow. We then, you know, you can setting and you look at what they don't know as to gird of months, is really that. That's what get me excited. But you can't do that without friction. You can't grow without pain. You can grow without a moment where you doubt yourself. You can grow without a moment where you say about already don't like the way you spoke to me, but then you wake up the next day you're like, well, actually, maybe the form was not great, but the content, God is rights. But I need to welcome that. And that's it takes a big man for your colleagues so who to call you and thank you for it. I think that's that's great. You know, you definitely developed a great relationship there, because it happens to me this week as well. I went in a little bit with one of our one of our gays, been with us for seven year els, and he thank me for it's a look, that's what I need it. That's what I did. Is Because, you know, it was just that not kicking the ball. I just, you know, maybe a bit of a bit too much success recently attracted a bit of complacency, and you just put me back on the rail and and I love you for that and I appreciate that. So I think sometimes it's not that we want it to be necessary and I think you should not be done freely and it's got to be done when the time is right. But it is important to have that friction. Is Important to put a line on the sentence, a look you you're not doing what you supposed to do. Or let me refrain what you are doing and tell you why. You Start Right and this conversation, in my opinion, a fee. Try Not to have too many of them, because another was an joy a ball. But I like I like what you're saying as well, because you very honest about the feeling you have when you end up that food and you had that conversation. You Stop Qushing Yourself. Are I been to Ush? No, have I let...

...my passion take the best out of me? You know right the you know it's like the the Engel on one side the devil on the other side, that that guy's been speaking often to us. What have I done? And it's good at that gay call you back, because he that probably kind of emputy to feel better about it as well, which is which is very important. We getting to the end of the conversation, which is an absolute shame. I think we could have. We could have carried on forever. But what are usually asked at the end, at the end of the conversation, is two things really is people may want to get in touch with you is not to carry on this conversation or to discuss about how they could engage with clary and get your support to have better visibility in that by plan forecast its attract so if people wants to get in touch with you can, what is the best way to engage? Likelke, then please just look me up, Kyle Coleman. Unlike the and I post pretty frequently. Try a handful of times per week on topics mostly around top of an all star and a stuff, a little bit around management philosophies and things like that. And then, if you're interested in finding out more about Clary at Cela Ri Clarycom and requested them out, our team will be in touch and we'll get your all the information you need. That's wonderful. While it was an absolute pleasure to have you on the showcarn thank you very much. Thank you so much for the time where was an absolute thrill to be here. Appreciate it. Thank you. You've been listening. To be to be read the new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (142)