B2B Revenue Acceleration
B2B Revenue Acceleration

Episode · 9 months ago

120: How to Budget for SDR's w/ Dan Seabrook

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Building a sales development team is a feat worth investing in, that much is becoming common knowledge in the business world. Understanding exactly how to budget for an SDR team is the first hurdle to creating a successful team, yet is undoubtedly one of the most important.

After all, it’s not just the salary that needs to be considered. SDRs not only have to be hired but onboarded, managed and provided with a tech stack to ensure success.

While necessary, these elements can take a significant chunk out of your budget, so it’s essential to account for this when allocating finances to creating a team of SDRs.

To shed some light on the deliberation process, we sat down with Dan Seabrook, Vice President of Sales at Operatix, to discuss how to budget for SDRs.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to The B2B Revenue Acceleration Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

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A most obvious place to start as understanding what pipeline in revenue you need to generate. I'm working back from that and then, of course, understanding how much you need to focus on in bound versus outland. You were listening to be tob revenue acceleration, a podcast dedicated helping software executive stay on the cutting edge of sales and marketing in their industry. Let's give in the show. Hi, welcome to be to be a revenue acceleration. My name is Ohiam's here and I'm here today with Dancy Brook. See how our operatics. Are You doing today? That yeah, very good. Thank you. Oh good, how are you? Yeah, not too bad. Not Too bad. I think we sh your very well Christmas party last Friday, which is good. We know edding up towards the end of the year, so it is very exciting planning for two thousand and twenty two. So I'm not not complaining, loving it at the moment. And today we will be speaking about just a party for the people who are hitting. Are Just lost all my Microsoft so I don't have the word document in front of me anymore. You may come up at some time, but today we will be speaking about how to budget for as yeah, which I think is a is kind of an interesting topic tyfinitely something has been evolving over the last few years and and that's kind of my first question for you. Then you know, I'll do you think the role off his DA and the cost of is yeah, as evolved over the last few years. So I think that's a few factors. From my perspective, one of the most important factors to consider the last few years is probably the increase in the appreciation as to how important and your function is within a business and it actually being considered much more of a stand alone strategic function than it was once was. But I think if you cost a mind back a few years ago, it is very much just considered an entry point in two sales with people desperate to become can't exacts or go into other roles as soon as possible, whereas now, I think being a kind of world class str has considered a good career in its own right and actually the str function being considered a strategic function in its own right. And now in a lot of businesses, from what I see, it's it's actual a stand alone function, not necessarily just part of sales or just part of marketing. It's actually a stand alone strategic function. So with that kind of increase in in the importance of the role of the at least how important it is being considered, certainly that's obviously increased what the top strs can command from a salary perspective. I mean the other element is is the competition out there. So there's, I think you know, there's thousands of unfilled str and aid positions today in the SASS market, on the software market and nactually that's obviously created that that typical SIPPAL and demand issue for companies, and so that's pushing salaries up and and their way bigger than they were just a few years ago. And then, of course the other element to consider is inflation, which is running at a pretty steep amount in both UK and US. I think in the UKs north of six percent. In the UK it's around for four point two, four point three percent. So that's having a massive knock on impact on what companies are having to pay stoff. And then, I know the other element is just finally, is the pressure that covid created on pipeline generation. So...

...historically marketing team sells teams have had all of these different kind of functions that they've been able to utilize to build quipeline events, in person activities, digital marketing activities, you know, other account based marketing elements. And then now really one of the key sources to market, or key roots market, I should say, more so than Everest, is around an str team, because it's something that's been able to be Brazilian and robust despite the different changing landscape of of business, with with the impact of Covid and I think that's increased the popularity and increase of strategic importance of str teams in general and therefore just it pushed the costs up of having a team in house or indeed outsting that, Ye know, I've seen that does where completely a group is. Yeah, I think on top of that there is all that mixed up together with a with a massive dose of urgency, because I think what we saw or the course of covied is organization that probably had to reduce a target market by thirty percent, you know, when you remove all the traveling companies, when you removed rtel chains and everything was struggling. Of all the course of Fur, of all the course of of Covid Nain team. That would mean that we had less I comes to go after or less it comes to go after, so less medium to go after us and I think a big one for customer. I was read the events. Even for us, you know, as a as a certain marketing team, events have always been very good to us and when you don't have dose events anymore, you're missing. I don't know, I don't normally leads you you are losing, but probably a big part of your strategy. But all that mixed up with a tremendous amount of urgency because we need to we need to make the targets that maybe we could not be less sure. I have personally seen cost offer his. The are going through the roof like a the actual custofer resource. I don't know what your views on that, but I think a probably see that costs evolving by at least, if it's not thirty five person at least thirty percent in the last couple of years. And I think not only the costs increase, but I think the standout that people are requesting for the dsdal is also dropping down a light. In the US, people would have, like people who just come out of university now, if not going to school, that's fine. You can still be an estimatim in fact, no education at all still work. What are you also sometimes you do you agree with a statement or do you think it's a you have a different view? Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean I think if you look at some of the some of the roads out there from an sure perspective, they're probably from from a salary and at perspective matching what you would be in paid. Is like a an SMBA or mid market account exactive two, three years ago. For sure, they're climbing up and and the interesting thing is, to your point, in our case working is now so organized and where clients may a certain point in time want to recruit people directly from us, they may be recruiting someone that one year ago was working in an environment definitely not aligned with their high growth software company, and then, you know, on a lot less money in today...

...they're plucking them and probably paying them for four five times or they would have been paid a year ago. And yes, they've obviously learned a certain amount and they've up skilled themselves certain amount in that period of time that that they're in their last job to going into the next one. But I mean it's not the same as having, take three, five, seven years business experience where they've developed themselves, you know, and their commercial lacking in so I completely agree. It's a the other challenge, of course, is the incredible amount of funding and to your point around urgency, when you see that the funding has quadrupled in the last year and, you know, multiplied by five times in the last two years, then was it was its six billion in just the data from crunch base was probably a very, very, very top of different number. Did we did we look at six million in twenty twenty of startups receiving investment to twenty one million this year. That's right. What billion? Yeah, so fur fell. Four billion in two thousand and nineteen, five billion in two thousand and twenty and twenty one billion in two thousand and twenty one. So mean, naturally they're just an incredible amount of pressure coming from the market, from BCS to accelerate growth as quickly as possible. And and it's not just at the amount of funding, its the size of these funding around. So there's certain companies out there taking five hundred million or a billion dollars of funding in a series be of seriously, they just have more money. It's as simple as that. They just have more money to throw a growth. I'm not sure it would probably align with the most sensible business practice in some instances as to how to grow, but I mean the money's in the bank, so then they need to do it right and it's you know, the feedback we get from our clients, I think points towards and as six, not not just growth but the speed of growth. It's not just it's not good enough to grow, but doing it over ten years. You've got to do in two years. So you know, I mean that condensing a hell of a lot of funding into a two year period to spend it means that they're just throwing money around us as much as possible and obviously that trickled down into all of the different sales roles and str roles that are out there. And then the other pressure of not being they're not being enough talented people out there, which is what I think brings a whole nother arguments the table, which is about diversity. So actually not just hiring people with your typical technology sales background, but hiring people from other diverse backgrounds that you can potentially take. You know someone that was working in hospitality a year ago that have now lost that drop because of coving could actually be perfect for an str role and I actually, you know, in a year or two be on a lot of money compared to what they would have been in hospitality. Now. I was working in the cooke tail bar before before taking they first may feels bit like the song. So that's that's true, Bin Interesting. So on one side, if we look at it from the vendor perspective, lots of funding, not only for yourself but for other people around you. So obviously everybody's running after growing war for talents made the asdr dl a's sees and all that. Everybody is recruiting. Nobody's got to sensetive big enough.

So the salary goes up, the cost of salary goes up. What were your perspective on the actual response to the market? Because with more and more companies, I mean more and more technology companies to start with, I felt, I think, there is an increasing time of the number of start up every year. There is obviously with that the increasing time of the investment going to start up company. With that there is an increasing time of volume of his Dr Globally and I think the volume of is your globally is increasing. You're on are what's the response of the market? Was the response of prospect do you think is still easier than eyear to get through the folks, through the through the noise and still get that vital meeting for your account manager and all that proof of value or that they more set up for your accop manager, or do you think is becoming more difficult than ever? Well, an, there's a couple of things and if you look back a few years ago and even much longer than when I started my career, obviously there was the one side offense. It was easier because you were not competing with as many organizations and as many other rest yours as you are today, and so when you could find them reach the right prospects, you are probably having a better conversation, not only because there's less competition but also because they were less educated. Today's buyers are so educated that they know more about your solution before you even the new do by the time that you engage them. There was that element which was easier. The thing that made it harder than a few years ago and much longer than that was the lack of tools and data and inside that you've got today. So of course, if you fast forward to today, there as much more competition, for sure in terms of STRs, number of vendors, number about sources to our companies and all that. There's definitely more competition. But then on the other side of it, there are a lot of a lot more tools to make your life easier, and I think there are more tools around intend data, that more tooled around data itself, around sales automation, around cool it intelligence, called coaching software, although different types of technologies and data platforms that can make an s your life easier. So yes, it can be more difficult to stand out from the crowd, but you've got more tools that you're disposal to allot to support you to do that. I think generally speaking, what we see, what we've seen, is we've probably seen a steady, certainly not an aggressive but a slight decline probably in productivity per efty. But the difference is, I would say, that the value of that meeting, when a meeting is it's delivered to her an AE, is higher and therefore often it's a better conversation and often the conversion rate from meeting to opportunity goes up because I think whenever when a buyer is taking a meeting it's a more serious meeting and perhaps it would have been ten, five, ten fifteen years when they were less educated about the prospect and it was much more education. So I think it's a changing landscape. I think there's less probably educational meetings and much more quality when when when sitting in front of her prospect they you raise a very good point. So cost of just the air goes up. It's probably a bit more difficult to get the results. So technically, your cusper lead, your cusper demo,...

...your cusper proof of concept, your cospel opportunity or cosper deal close is increasing. Okay, but you raise a good point around the technology, right, and I think this is very important. When we budget for as Dr Bda sometimes we made the silly mistake of just looking at the individual. Right, but you've got to manage the individual. The individual probably in more tools more than ever right now, and I think you mentioned a few of them. So sends automation, Potentially Marketing Automation, but marketing automation is probably not the cause that you would associate with Vida, more with marketing activities. So sells automation, conversational intelligence, to the lack of going refract chorus sends love to all those guys. Obviously, probably Linkedin as well. I think linkedin sells that degator is a big one. Yeah, and then you all the data stuff. So data could be seem less, could be zooming for could be six sens could be Lusha, all those tool that are giving you access to the data. You know roughly and on average, you know how much would you seem need? That's monstly because because when you had them all together they must have at this we were probably talking about that list. And as are five sound five hundred to a thousand dollars with a foot on top of the custom yet true person? Yeah, I would imagine so. I mean, I think the thing is it will depend on the size of the organization as well as in the STR team itself, because of course, if you're buying all of those solutions and you have a manager over you only have two strs, then you're the cost of all of those tools and the management of though people are going to be relatively high. I think you spread it over a slightly larger team, it starts to make more sense. Generally speaking, I think a rule of thumb I've kind of heard and it sounds sensible to me, is that probably when you have a team of five to six SDRS, it can start to make sense to look at bring that in house. Below that it can start to be relatively expensive to have that in the house. When you look right across the whole kind of life cycle of having an str you have to start with the with the recruitment, the cost of recruitment. That whether you have that recruiter in how to use an agency, there's some there is some cost along the lines. Then there's the enablement of that person, whether you have a training person or enablement person. That's going to be a searching cost. Then the other element to consider is that they're not going to be productive day one. It might take them three to six months and I think that process is elongating, to be honest, not shortening in terms of the timeline to get that person successful. So in that first three months you're certainly not going to make the profit or the RII that you're expecting to make on that individual. But is it when they've been doing the job for a one year period and then of course, to make that person successful. To your point, you have all of those tools. And then something that's often overlooked is if you have a management a manager I should say, you need to spread that management cost over the team that you have in place. But if you don't have a manager, someone's got to manage them. So then you must be thinking, well, it's a crow or BEPF sales who's done a pretty good salary, spreading their costs across that team as well and the time associated with doing so. So and of course you have to then...

...deal with churn, which is an str wants to be promoted probably after six months twelve months of good performance. They want to come in a and it must be one of the highest churning roles within a sales environment, just because it's entry level people that you're often not able to qualify that if they are really cut out for that role or not. And so you have a slightly higher channeing you'd expect in any other part of the business and there's a cost that you've got you've got to attach to that. So I think when you build it all in, it's probably another thirty, two fifty percent on top of just that that raw salary, the gross cellery. I think there's a considerable amount more cost on top of that. And Yeah, I think, you know, a thousand pounds or a thousand dollars is probably on the very low end when you consider the churn and the cost of recruitment and the cost of management and all of that. Yeah, that's next. That makes perfect sense. Do Qush out the worst? I'm probably being as a question literally every week. Why should I outsource? It seems to be shipped by faiths or sit's. I've got my own started. That's one that I'd like to a'd like to your your spost and then, if it's not the same old come up was made. But you know what's so on sort of the what? What do you think is the benefit of insourcing? Thus alsocing, and of course will be by us because we work for prietings in we are sells. I'll Sare so, but you know what would be of your ownest pure opinion on that matter. So naturally that aren'to varies from companies company depending on their context. But if you just think about it in a very kind of black and white fashion, all of our plans to be top technology companies right and they're their speciality is is manufacturing, creating, developing and selling software, but there their expertise typically is not in creating demand for that software or that technology. They do have some smart people in the business are able to do so, but actually being able to develop and scare the make success for the NESTYR team probably one of the hardest things to do, primarily because of the profile of person. You're normally having someone that's at the more junior end of their career and, of course, all also it's actually one of the most intricate roles out there right now. I think when you look at the key value in today's market of an outsort of company versus doing it in house, there's a few things. I think the skill shortage and and the lack of available talent is a massive thing, because if you went to think today is day one you want to build up a nest your team, you're going to find it really have to find the right people are on board, the right people, and then it's going to take you a long time to get them. Success will probably three to six months. The value of an outsourced test our companies that we have the people. Today we have the best practice. We have the management infrastructure, we have the tools. That data are the insights, the birds I view across all of our other clients to know what's making them successful and not successful, and we can apply that logic and that intelligence and that experience to a new client and get them off the ground much more quickly. Now, that's not saying that we're magicians, but we have all of those different elements in place today. That other that if you're building that team from scratch today, you wouldn't have. So I think what it comes down to is the speed and the scale and the experience. And then...

...the other element, of course, is when you're building up a team, you've got to make a decision. Do you want to build that team and do the US or do you want to build that team and do Europe? And from a business such as us, we have the ability to bring that scale globally from one organization. They're not only do you benefit from all of those elements I just spoke about, you can do that a global scale, and that's something that's quite difficult to do if you have to hire full time equivalence in a particular region at any particular time and then I think the other element is the ability to test the market before you know that you absolutely need an str or before you know exactly what you're needing an str for. So if you look at what we do for a lot of earlier stage companies is that we're almost like a market research organization and that, yes, we deliver a meeting to the prospect and to the client, I should say, but what what we're also doing is a lot of validation and testing of the message to understand what's really resonating and not. Then we can pass that back to our client and once they feel that they've got actually a really well defined, well written, clear, concise playbook around the messaging, is at that point in time when they built up enough demand that they may make sense to start transitioning that functioning house. One of the clear benefits of having that function in house of courses, if you've got that bottom layer of talent, that is a talent pool to fuel your aids of the future. So that is an element to consider. Then that's something else that we often will deliver to our clients as well in the form of a conveyor out of talent, which is we can work together for a period of time, one year, two year, three years, and then at a certain point of in the future they may actually want to recruit that person from operatics, for you know, at a pre agreed ray to pretty group price and recruitment structure that we have. But ultimately it allows them to once they understand the market, once they understand that sale process, once they have an SDR team built up, it's much safer better then go down and go down the route of actually hiring and building that team in house. So I think a few different elements. Naturally that will change from clime to crime and you can get into the weeks of where they're doing in bound versus outbound and all of that. But at a very high level, I think at in today's world it comes down to the speed and scale and efficiency of having a team outsource versus actually can having the opportunity to go in house. Yeah, yeah, use some way. I mean the last time I was, as the question is, someone I actually knew and did some business within the past, was with with someone else on that in that was a bit like new to the concept of outsourcing and the way also the question is to look at you very smart I'm sure you're going to work it out. If you want to do it on your own, you can do it, you know. But the question is, do you have six months, you have nine months, or do you want to get it done now? You know we can get it that now. We will be a little bit more expensive probablydden building your own team. In fact, I think that could be debatable because you've got a good point of turn over in the team and repreating people and things like that. There is lots of from cost, but usually speedies is of the essence. I think if she if...

...you don't have time, it's very difficult to do it in house or almost risky because if you make a mistaken you know you've got to do a change in the team or or you've got to see people coming and going from that team. They can really set you back. But yeah, I think I agree with you. I think time is the most is the most important element in the Indians. Or to that question now, I'll do you evaluate the number of videas there is in your team? Right, so I'm a startups. I've got my target for next year. I've got a bit of thin bound I've got a bit, you know, need to do a bit of Holt Bounds. Don't it five and six, when it ten? What was the way to was the way to evaluate the mean? Yes, the Avidea you need in your team. You know, the one of the most obvious places to start is is understanding what amount of revenue you want to generate from that particular part of Your Business. So you know, if you take a total topline target, you're going to have different areas where that pipeline is going to come from, that revenue's going to come from. Some of it's going to be marketing, some of it's going to be from the A, some of it's going to be from channel partners, some some of it's going to be, you know, introductions by board members and be season all of that. And there's some of it's going to come from from a, the str function. Now often a rule of thumb used is that for an a maybe a third of their target should come from strs, a third coming from in bound, a third coming from themselves or, you know, a third from marketing, which may include strs, a third from themselves, a third from channel partner. So there's normally a third of third of third rule somewhere in there for an ae to do their number. The reality is, I think, when you look at understanding how many SDRs dire actually need your business, it needs to start with how much pipeline revenue you want to generate on a quarterly or annual base. It from that str group and then understanding, you know, some of the the kind of saled funnel that contributes towards that in terms of how many deals do you need to actually execute in order to get to your revenue objective? What is your average deal size from opportunity to close one? What's your conversion rate from meeting to opportunity, from and even coming back from further than that, from mql to meeting and all that? Now the other element to considers. It's not just about in the early stage of the business, it's not just about the revenue, because I think a big and often overlooked part is is around understanding the market. So a lot of our clients will often take more strs than they need in some instances because they want to yes, be getting more, more opportunities at the table, but they also want to to understand more about the market more quickly, because most of our plants are operating in extremely high growth markets. Where they want to go and you know, have a rep in the US, are reper in France or rep in the UK or up in the audits, whatever, and really get market feedback very quickly at the same time as having sales conversations, and in a lot of instances it almost becomes as valuable as probably a deal, because it can influence their message in their marketing, their product road map and all of that. I think you know. But coming back to your point, the most obvious place to start as understanding what pipeline in revenue you need to generate and working back from that and then, of course, understanding...

...how much you need to focus on in bound versus outband. But I don't think there's a one side fits all answer there, just because of the amount of market validation or market research you may actually want to do for your sluice. Yeah, I would. What do you think of that? I think he's a tough cushion to on stage, folk quare. Ask It to be asked it to you, just just a cutu would say to be this was your would. You're right, he can be like so very we've got some clients, so I that tost an some clients. This show will and we've got to be mindful of that as well. So kind of going slightly on the side of the on somewhere. I will get to young S, but you mentioned of a few daming that in the composition in Bundas without bound I think this is such an important, important topick as well. At the moment we've had many clients that have struggled to generate the right level of in bounds to sustain that growth or the growth that is expected from them. Okay, but unfortunately or fortunately for them, they have been able to up to a certain point they've been able to sustain their growth, and quite a quick growth, quite a high growth, with in bounds. Okay, but comes a points where in bound is not sufficiency. Need to turn to outbound, and I think it's usually when I've seen people saying, okay, we need to adksolse that, we need to adksource that, because in bound is okay, I'm selling. If I'm selling, I don't know, an electric car or TV, you're going to speak to people, just come to you and say as the consumption for long, can I go with it? Or if it's a TV, is it was a different between Plasma Orl the know approximatively what type of TV they want. They've already done a bit of shopping around. So you can go straight into something a little bit more product lad you can go straight into the stuff that you can learn by art, if you will. Okay, don't not think that. You you need to kind of create on the spots, etc. Etc. I think the art of prospecting and outbound prospecting is really around being relevant and pertinant to the people you are targeting, and that start about understanding your product. It's a bottomder something Indians user, it's a bottom the something. What's that? Title's their company and based on the vertical or the industry they work in and the title of the individual they are paying points, their issues will be different and you need to adapt to that. And then you need to have the value point behind of saying, Hey, if we work with individual like you, this is how much we can say, how much more efficiency we can bring, and this is what you would mean from a monetary perspective. Does that make sense to you? Yes or low? And I think this is what we've seen companies struggling in doing internally because they get probably the get that cells team brainwashed with product, product, product. You go to a kick off his product, product, when what you should do is to actually completely step back from the product, look at it from the balcony and look at your prospectency. Okay, what are they doing? How can I be personals in that context? And I think that's very, very difficult to do if you come sit on the balcony because you're you're the Bulcon if you just got your products and you mentioned something early on, which is, I think, that bird I view and...

...nothin. That's a massive advantage for companies like us because we can see what's going on. We are defying we always in particularly over the course of Covid nineteen and even see even now, we've been adapting the way we operate. I think the methodology is pretty much the same, but the medium we've been using have changed. The phone was not workings, we had to move to Linkedin and then people got bother of Linkedin, so we had to move to something else. And it's always moving and that medium is always moving and it's about how quickly do you move, how quickly do you know about what's working was not working, and I'll quickly do you adapt technically. It's almost like the evolution theory of evolution. I think you you can move on much more quicker in that space if you really have that knowledge, if you really have that intelligence. So coming back to your point about how do you esteem makes you know the out budget for your team, I think if you was me and I look at most of our clients and I had to do a rule of average, I think I would split my team between insource and outsource. Personally, which I think is probably what ninety five percent of our clients are doing anyway, I would probably keep the inbound internally because I know I can get my guys doing the product inside out and I can move those people to a position and stuff like that, because he is really what you know you would want to do. A potentially even says, but I can get them to ruin other products sell the product, being able to do them on the product, do a little bit more on the cell cycle, but they're already speaking to someone who's interested. Right, however, for the practive party, is something that without source, okay, so the world would go about it. It's okay, this is how many Mquers, how many leads? I'm expecting to get from my marketing team next year. So I'll go to my marketing folks and say, okay, guys, what's your commitment? was going to be a contribution to seens or you gotta have that Mani. Okay. So I will do some math and say, I don't know, I need a hundred and fifty m to hours or two hundred and quel spare amounts in order to make one person, one full time equivalent, fully busy. Okay. So if I've got three hundred permounds, that's two people in my insight team, in my in my inbound team, in bound response, pennagement team. And I will go to my crro and say hey, okay, so you have marketing that will contribute thirty percent of your of your target for next year, Whatever Mang R it is. I'm expecting you to do some upset and cross them to some existing customers. So was that number. And that's basically what will come from the a's without, you know, any support from from outside. I would also expect the as to do a bit of the work themselves. So I will expect them to go and cry down L so I would ask my cro what I would look like and I will be left with a gap. Okay, and let's say that gap, for the purpose of the conversation, is as a million dollar. Right, I've got a million dollar to do. Next question is to look in my crm system. Look how many deals we close last year. What was a total booking value? Do the division. That will give you my average deal value. Let's say my average value is on Dreid K. I'm not really good at bath so I'm going to use some very, very simple Mathia. If I've got...

...to do a million and I've got an undred caverage deal value, I need to press tend gams. Okay, and I will go through the classic of again going in the CRM system and say, okay, we've got we've got a twenty personal closing rate from opportunity to close. So in a lot to close ten deals, I need to a fifteen opportunities. Okay, and then I will just go out to the market and speak to a few hours or so and say, look, what our level of activity do you need to put in in order to create those fifty opportunities? For me, now what I need is fifty opportunities. The last thing that I would take into consideration is the length of my cell cycle. So if I want to be concerned with that hundred K averaged in value or Aarr, I would say that my cell cycle is probably six months, nine months Max. Maybe in some places in Europe or there is a bit more of a consensus with lots of prospect getting together, but let's say six months. So technically, for another when I we know we are in December, mid December, I've got six months and a half to go and get those fifty opportunities. Anything that will get after you know, July will technically could be a twenty, twenty three opportunity. Okay, unless I'm lucky and I managed to close them quicker. Right, and then, based on that I will try to get partners that give me different pricing as to what you would look like. So that that's how I would go about it. I think you you're writing the center. There is is a bit of a tricky question because there is no rule of so it depends where you add and and and again. I know that we've got lots of startups, founders and and start up employees listening to the podcast and often you don't add that data. You know, if you've been going for one yeah, you're going to a new territory. You don't know what you're closing right is, you don't really know what your average deal value is. So sometimes it's a little bit more of it's a little bit more of an experiment. But I think the sort process should be along this line. Short process, the soap process should be straight for worlds, based on what I can get from marketing, what I can get from myself s team, what I would expect to get from some of the people and really set up some type of working relationship with whoever outsource partner I would use, or even if I was to do it myself, in terms of bring the team internally, but setting up some rollers to not just a number of meetings. We need to get our number of them, all we need to do, but more like the the qualitative stuff. So you know also we having good conversation and stuff like that, because I think one of the that's a subject that you and I discuss at length, but I think when we when we tend to budget, we just look at our numbers, but our numbers often don't give you. Don't give you the reality of what you need to do. is not the qualitative stuff. The quality stuff is. Actually how many good, meaningful conversation are you having with prospect how many people are saying no to you? Why are the sake no? Because the noise as valuable as a yes. But sometimes we cannot forget about that because again, we are in the oar gen versus the important. So I would really I would really try to look at all that together. But again, coming back to the bottom,...

...it's simple math, looking at the different sources of my needs. Looking at rough conversion rate, is a from historical data or thing that I can extrapolate from plastic spients and, you know, kind of flow off averages and a bit of a feeling, if you will, and then decide what I want to in solve. That's result source. There is start that I can keep close to my chest, because it's maybe the year I don't need someone to tell me on my product work. Technically, however, if I go to a new market and I don't know which companies to go after exactly, I'm not hundred personal shop, but the ICP or the person I should target. I'm not on hundred personal shore, but the Shue are facing an outo position my product. I would definitely go for someone has got experience in that field and try to try to save. Sometimes that's how go about it. To say, so much done for sharing your insight. I was super useful today. We see we we kind of speak on a daily basis. So, you know, hopefully be a much more, much more value for Jin and he was for me, because another kind of leave those topics on the daily basis. But if anyone wants to get in touch with you, always operatics, which we would tremendously encourage for one obvious reason. What was the bestly to get to get in touch with you then? And so I think, as ever roll always says, I think probably the best way is linkedin. For me, Damn Saeb on, Linkedin the company or protects donet is the best place. The inquiry will be picked up within about one minute by the sales team. So so I think I againyone to get it touched by a probably the best two places. And one last thing maybe before you go, because we we did something a little bit new this year with with pavilion, which was a family revenue collective. We publish a study with them. You want to take a minute or two just to just to go through that, because I think it's a great resource for people who are budgeting looking at this Dr Bid are trying to figure out cost trying to figure asked what should be the productivity. I mean it's quite a big report, but could you just think of a few moments just to take us through that and and maybe to Argents? But they can get it, so they so we can. We can see and with absolutely will. Firstly, I must that's a that's not a bad time to me to show this. Then if you can see that, I got this through my through my door today. It's some sort of a package from pavilion with with the with a note at and all of that. So I mean, that's that's very good. I guess that's what you get. If you remember. Yes, so the report that we did, I think it was called the state of self development, and basically it's a kind of code branded report between US and pavilion that both parties worked on to spend a lot of time on, you know, doing some research, identified pattern and collecting data to do some analysis on to understand what's actually going on within the world of self development. And that go from where pretty much covers all areas, from different technology stacks through to productivity pert or perst are. You know what type of salaries they should be getting paid. Well, seeing different types of success in different regions, in bound usus outbound lead flows, how much it each str is actually able to handle, and I think for...

...us, again, we know a lot of that data just through conversations and dealing with it every single day. But we saw a lot of interest when we've been when we've been releasing that report. So I think, for example, on my linkedin there was, you know, over on fifteen hundred votes when you know around one of the particular questions, and I think the question was related to how many strs should be aligned to each a, and I know that's obviously created a lot of debate. We've had hundreds of downloads and and we're definitely not using that as a sales tactic. It's really an information provision, to be honest. We're giving that out to the market and a lot of people seem to be getting a lot of good use out of it. We have had some conversations off the back of it where they're very consolative, where we're just having conversations with people and they're asking our opinions about different elements to do with the str roll and world and more than happy to keep doing that. But I think it's it's definitely a report work downloading. It's like thirteen pages, so it's not light that time reading, but it's worth, you know, maybe using it more like a manual to go back to if you just have any questions or concerns to if it as to whether you're doing the right thing or not from last time. Yeah, it's starts of graph so it's it's a good squad. They just but it's available on our websites, I bel if. Yeah, absolutely available on our website and and if you can't find it and you can just get in touch with us and we will have you happily sent it up. Good stuff one. Thank you so much for your time done today was really reads very much as well. Good Chat. You've been listening to be tob rather new acceleration. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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